Why is this a run-based game?

[FearlessJDK]

This game has been on my radar for years. I met the devs at Montreal Comiccon 2 or 3 years ago. They were super nice. And I'm always pleased to support a Canadian studio.

They gave some advice on how to break in to games. Hasn't paid off, but it was kind of them..

So, I came to the game pre-disposed to be kind. And there's a *lot* to love here. The visual style. Outstanding music, and a really innovative (if somewhat confusing) combat system.

But I don't understand why it's a rogue-lite or run-based game.

I've played Slay the Spire, FTL, Wizard of Legend, Ironcast, Dead Cells. The list goes on. I'm probably 300-400 hours of play in those kinds of games.

Those games tend to feature short runs with fairly meaningful choices with a bit of randomness sprinkled in. Usually when you have to pick between gear or cards you're creating a build. In Renegades I tend to pick whatever is highest level.

Also I just finished my second run and I've been playing for almost seven hours.

Now, I'm almost back at zero. And the meta-progression isn't satisfying enough to want to do this loop over and over and over again.

Though the gameplay is. I'll go in for a few more runs. Because the gameplay, visual style and music are enough to lure me back. But I'll admit I was hoping for more of a FTL, Run takes 45 minutes die, go back, rinse repeat. This is a bit more involved.

I will say, as someone who bounced off Halcyon 6 because I found all the managment elements a bit too daunting I wish this were more of a traditional game. Die, go back to a save, kind of thing. I'd finish it for sure.

[Chadwick Strongpants]

Sounds like this just isn't your kind of game.

[Scilin]

Originally posted by FearlessJDK:

I will say, as someone who bounced off Halcyon 6 because I found all the managment elements a bit too daunting I wish this were more of a traditional game. Die, go back to a save, kind of thing. I'd finish it for sure.

I'd encourage you to go a bit longer I didnt really understand everything super well until about 20 hours in but then again this is a niche game for a niche market, I cant think of anything else like it except for into the breach but even thats similar but really different, so I really appreciate and like this game very to my taste.

[Pnume]

I agree that the runs are too long for a rogue lite.

2 h per run would be an upper comfortable limit.
Beyond that this kind of game can turn into a time sink unless you figure the game out immediately.

Save scumming is relatively easy though...

[FearlessJDK]

Originally posted by Scilin:

Originally posted by FearlessJDK:

I will say, as someone who bounced off Halcyon 6 because I found all the managment elements a bit too daunting I wish this were more of a traditional game. Die, go back to a save, kind of thing. I'd finish it for sure.

I'd encourage you to go a bit longer I didnt really understand everything super well until about 20 hours in but then again this is a niche game for a niche market, I cant think of anything else like it except for into the breach but even thats similar but really different, so I really appreciate and like this game very to my taste.

I get where you're coming from. But again, as a run-based game. 20 hours to get to grips with it is a *big* ask. To go back and compare with the giants of the genre (again) I knew what I was doing in Slay the Spire in maybe 2 hours.

And what frustrates me is that there's *so much* potential here. This is a situation where, in some ways the whole is lesser than the sum of its parts.

I'll probably play some more. The combat is snappy, the music is just..... *chef's kiss* I love what this game does. But not what it is.

Honestly the game feels like it's having an identity crisis. Like it wants to be two things at once.

I'm not shaming anyone who has put in 100 hours already. If you can't get enough, cool! I can see why. I just find myself puzzled by this.

[BlackjackGT]

I've got about 47 hours in SR now even though maybe the first 20 made so frustrated and angry, I wanted to uninstall the game and pretend it never existed. Now, I can't stop playing. Now, when I start a new save and go through the first couple planets, I tear through it like a Reader's Digest article. :)

It's hard to judge the play time on this because a lot of the time is simply spent combing through combat menus deciding what you want to do and pondering, and remembering how past battles go. I enjoy that, but if you went through one of my 30 minute game play videos, and editing all the "I'm pondering what to dp" out of it, it'a fraction of that time.

Now I love it, I understand most of it. You can save and exit at any point in the game -- including in the middle of any battle or anywhere on an overland map, or anywhere in the game. Can't tell you how many roguelikes won't let you do that.

That said, Steam forums are full of "I don't understand why other people love this game, it does everything wrong" threads, and imho, no forum post ever convinced someone to change their mind about a game that they already made their mind up about.

[Fringehunter7719]

Runs do take a long time, due to slow animation and clunky mechanics for seeing the results of enemy actions, unfortunately.

With better fast mode (particularly overworld fast mode) and simple mouse or key target inspect and/or better estimates of turn outcomes it would probably only take 2 hours to do a complete run.

I like the thin amount of meta progression, too many roguelites go into it too heavily. FTL had it right - new starting loadouts and a few cool things were locked behind results, rather than a large amount of your character's strength. I heavily dislike the mechanic of locking your first few runs into quasi-assured failure to create the illusion of improvement.

[Azell]

i would be okay with it if the Auto fast forward didn't have that annoying effect on it all the time and was smoother

[Dankheart]

I don't mind the longer runs in general. Wouldn't mind if there was some shorter game mode available, but what would you honestly suggest? Without altering the mechanics of combat how would you make it shorter for a session? I'm not sure tbh.

[FearlessJDK]

Originally posted by SpartanRage117:

I don't mind the longer runs in general. Wouldn't mind if there was some shorter game mode available, but what would you honestly suggest? Without altering the mechanics of combat how would you make it shorter for a session? I'm not sure tbh.

That's a great question.

I actually have an answer. It's something a few comments have touched on above.

Streamline the non-combat bits.

There's actually a lot of wasted time. Let's list a few:

1, Leveling up goes to seperate screen with unique animations for each level up.
2, The equpiment UI is clunky and has too many screens.
3, The dialogue when you kill enemies Also having to click through them when going to each new world
4, speed up camping


5, The over-map. This one is (to me) HUGE. Navigation is really irritating. Having to click on a specific spot to move zones. Pathways are unclear and map items aren't obvious either.

Honestly I think if navigation weren't so tedious I'd be less bothered.

Again this is an area I feel like maybe they spent less time on. Or didn't have enough external testers to show now it needs work.

Also, let me again heap praises on SR. I would not be making these critiques if this game were just bad. Heck even if the game were average I probably wouldn't bother.

But there's a lot of love in every pixel. Which is why I'm so brutal. Because I've no doubt they want this game to be the best it can be. They're also a team that likes to re-visit and tweak. The put in a whole Lightspeed Mode in Halcyon because people found the base game too long.

I hope we see similar tweaks and adjustments here.

[Dankheart]

Curious are you using a controller or mouse? Not saying the navigation is going to win any awards, but I have no issue moving around with an xbox controller. Combat is much easier to navigate for me with it too.

I'm torn on some of those little bits. The level up pop up I kinda like and its such a small percentage of your time and I think it does add something. Some of the dialogue as you explore I am less enthralled with. Maybe if at least every character was unique, but when half of them use the same responses or even contradict themselves one sentence to the next it feels kinda pointless.

However camping and those conversations while still silly I have a little more fun with. A lot of these activities don't really add much time I feel and the game would just be missing those brief moments of pause.

Maybe I'm crazy, but part of me wouldn't mind it being potentially longer for a run. Instead of it being about being one specific boss and "winning" it would be more of a survival long form going from planet to planet until you just can't anymore.

There are a lot of ways they could spin the core gameplay and would still enjoy it, but I'm enjoying my time with it in its current state too. I am very curious to see what the devs do decide to add down the line.

[Zara]

I've got to agree with the complaint about the dialog in general, and the slow down it causes in the game. Every time I have to wait for the screen to pan to some random lieutenant to say something completely unnecessary I cringe. Now I'm no speed runner by any stretch of the imagination, but when I'm slowed down by something completely unnecessary, I get kinda annoyed.

I also agree that the 15 second leveling screen is long and largely pointless. If you paid the tiniest bit of attention when choosing who to level, you would know exactly what you are getting, and the splash screen is therefore redundant.

Gear is kind of getting on my nerves a little as I play more, not enough to impact me but still. I think that the only thing that should show in the inventory when you are clicking on a slot is what can be equipped in that slot, not everything you've gotten so far. It's not a huge thing, just kinda annoying imo.


I'm actually having a blast with the game, but there are just some things that could be improved.

[Fringehunter7719]

Originally posted by FearlessJDK:

5, The over-map. This one is (to me) HUGE. Navigation is really irritating. Having to click on a specific spot to move zones. Pathways are unclear and map items aren't obvious either.

I think this is the single biggest issue for wasting time (that and the clunky hold key and mouse over to inspect unit actions which has erratic behaviour for actually showing the info you need). Although for me it's just the walk speed as much as anything. Often times I find myself backtracking through 3-5 sectors so I can hit an elite within my first two moves which have a camping buff and then prevent a sector going into lockdown with the last move.

Then I have to backtrack another 3-5 sectors at nightfall for a coin or sidequest. Then the following day I have to backtrack the same sectors again. At this point I've watched several minutes of pixel walking animation to no real effect.

Originally posted by FearlessJDK:

Also, let me again heap praises on SR. I would not be making these critiques if this game were just bad. Heck even if the game were average I probably wouldn't bother.

Absolutely!

[lyravega]

A few observations:

• I don't understand why we have to move the party, when it is a room-based system. Feels like there was going to be proper exploration, but then there wasn't
• I don't understand why the "?" dudes on 2nd and 3rd planet are always "?", feels like each planet is supposed to have a staging area, but then the 1st planet became the first planet, and the other two's staging areas got ditched
• I don't understand why the behemoth maps have room transitions, and a lot of empty space to cover, as if they're simplified to fit just one boss battle and nothing else
• I don't understand why we have planet selection, as it is linear, non-diverging
• I don't understand why planet selection map displays the behemoth names, as they're always the same behemoths, maybe there were supposed to be more planets / areas / behemoths, and each time it was supposed to be a different combination

All in all, it feels like the game was going to be something else, but then the plans have been changed. Bigger planets, each planet having a staging area, free-roam instead of room-based system, diverging paths, different planets, different behemoths, maybe even a faction system with some factions dominating certain systems and act like other villain sources, etc... etc...

[Dankheart]

Originally posted by Fringehunter7719:

Originally posted by FearlessJDK:

5, The over-map. This one is (to me) HUGE. Navigation is really irritating. Having to click on a specific spot to move zones. Pathways are unclear and map items aren't obvious either.

I think this is the single biggest issue for wasting time (that and the clunky hold key and mouse over to inspect unit actions which has erratic behaviour for actually showing the info you need). Although for me it's just the walk speed as much as anything. Often times I find myself backtracking through 3-5 sectors so I can hit an elite within my first two moves which have a camping buff and then prevent a sector going into lockdown with the last move.

Then I have to backtrack another 3-5 sectors at nightfall for a coin or sidequest. Then the following day I have to backtrack the same sectors again. At this point I've watched several minutes of pixel walking animation to no real effect.

Originally posted by FearlessJDK:

Also, let me again heap praises on SR. I would not be making these critiques if this game were just bad. Heck even if the game were average I probably wouldn't bother.

Absolutely!

Seriously are you all doing this on mouse and keyboard? Imagine playing classic Final Fantasy by clicking. The controls are in my opinion clearly designed around controller with the ability to work on M+KB slapped on.

[dregen54321]

It's more of a hybrid between true rogue and roguelike games. If you've played stuff like ToME you can be 20 hours into a run and suddenly have it end due to a single mistake. Or "hardcore" modes in ARPG's.

I beat the game on my first run so it was kind of weird watching a bunch of dialogue popups that kind of assume that you die on the first run. But I spent insanely long periods pondering every single move and how to get out of impossible scenarios.

Don't think of the runs as wasted time. The whole point of hardcore-style games is that buildup of risk and tension as you advance further into the game.

With rogues/hardcore ARPG's the journey is where the fun is, not the destination. But some people will just never enjoy that kind of ponderous, stressful gameplay.