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Yeah fair enough, although after interacting with them and being offered those 3 choices part of me just wants to detonate the machine in the habitat because they are all jerks.
I was mostly just hoping someone whos played a bit more could give me a slight spoiler so i could know if:
1. Am i still able to keep the pit independant with Mercy, or am i way past that point?
2. If i help the church am i going to be stuck helping the dodgy pope dude keep being more dodgy and making a bunch of people kill each other or can i expose him? (and i guess the same for the other 2 factions, will i get to influence internal politics to shape them at all, but mainly i wanna punch that pope).
3. Does giving the machine to a faction mean i dont get to interact with the other 2 factions, cause it feels like theres people in each faction id like to help cause they seem more reasonable than the others in power.
I guess all 3 factions are kind of making a point that skewing too far into one ideology leads to corruption and makes you lose many of the benefits that would have been appealing about the ideology in the first place.
Order -> Tyranny for the Protectors. Theres nothing wrong with wanting a clear set of rules and instructions, so everyone knows where they stand. Justice is built on the ideal of laws applying to everyone and consequences for actions. But the Protectors have taken that to the extreme and have a police state where no one is allowed to have an opinion.
Freedom -> Corruption and Inequality for the Brotherhood. Amusingly the Brotherhood who are all about freedom have actually slipped into the trap of 0 regulations. In a totally "free" society, those who seize power have no checks and balances in place. The wealthy elite (like that dude making bank selling food that is supposed to be free) can sit in luxury while telling everyone else that they are free. The fact that they wanted to crack down on the "mutineers" who dared to speak out shows that the leadership at least has descended into corruption.
Faith -> Dogma and Zealousness for the Church. The power of belief, of faith, of spirituality can become a powerful motivator, and can be a source of hope and happiness. This is even more true when the tenants of the faith include things like helping the poor, feeding the hungry, etc etc. But it looks like the powers that be have shifted that into a rigid dogmatic zealousness, so they can tell their followers their suffering is fine, god loves them, while behind the scenes they get rich, powerful and in this case are looking to spark a war that could kill half the remaining population and cause irreparable damage.
So, will joining any of the factions allow me to shift them back from their "corrupted" ideals into something thats better for everyone?
Expose to whom? In other words, yes, offering the machine to a faction means working for whoever's in charge.
You'll be able to finish that Hanson-Silas quest, if that's what you're asking.
No (it's kind of like asking if you can influence the government in your country).
2. You're not stuck helping him and your decision regarding the Machine isn't final.
3. Until you actually deliver the Machine to a faction (much later), you can still interact with all the other factions.
"No. Only under Jonas."
If i could make a tiny request, maybe its worth making that a bit more obvious in the beginning. I know that when i started playing, my number 1 goal was for the pit to remain independent of politics and to be able to choose their own destiny. And to be a happier place for everyone that gets stuck there.
Based on my interactions with Jonas and Braxton, i would have put money down that neither were going to offer that. Jonas maybe with the independence part, but it was made clear that the pit wasnt strong enough to stand on its own. And with Jonas seeming to rule through "benign neglect" it felt like without meta game knowledge i had no way of actually know what would pursue my goal. I didnt really have any reason to expect Mercy would either, but she seemed the most likely to treat the town well and not become beholden to others. She even seemed pretty chill religiously (in the 2 times i spoke to her lol).
I totally understand the idea of the player not being some big shot, and therefore not knowing everything that is going on, but i feel like from a satisfaction in the game perspective, you can at least let players know what path they are attempting to do.
This is probably the bit im most sad about tbh, Im super bummed i cant try and form an alliance between the various underdogs so they dont all get consumed by one of the 3 factions. And maybe i just missed it somewhere in the dialogue, but i didnt really see any indication that Janos was the only path of allying all the little guys together.
"Expose to whom? In other words, yes, offering the machine to a faction means working for whoever's in charge."
I was thinking expose to the next highest person in that faction who arent jerks.
Im not saying make it easy, i love that nothing exceptional in these games is easy, but i mean i murdered everyone in in the black hand gang solo, and singlehandedly won the roads for "Thy Brothers Keeper". I was the primary actor who managed to overthrow and install a leader in the pit. Like i (well my team) lead the attack and killed all the enemies themselves.
I dont think that it would be entirely unreasonable for my team, geared up to the 9s, masters (10+) in the arts of not only streetwise and persuasion but also stealth and assassination to at least attempt to sway the leadership (or form a mutiny). We are also literally armed with 10x the gear in laser weaponry than any other organisation ive seen. Like 100+ energy cells, and laser rifles, pistols, shot guns, swords, you name it we laser it.
"No (it's kind of like asking if you can influence the government in your country)."
Well i mean i am offering a machine that when i offered it to one of them (i cant remember which) they said they would give me anything if i gave it to them. So i guess if i had like a magical source of infinite power (thats not what the machine is, just trying to be comparable) maybe i can influence the government?
Sorry, this all seems very complainy, i do really enjoy the game. And i know you guys are the small indie dev, so the answer to a lot of the above is just, we dont have the time/resources to code that in, which is a 100% good reason. Much rather have good well thought out systems than a bunch of extra stuff tacked on and untested.
https://youtu.be/dW9AYVMXipw?si=h9jcT7lOuPF6pUkb
I dunno, just roll with it all. If things don't go how you'd like, you always have another run to try; the game isn't a 120+ hour epic that may discourage repeat plays.
Things being what they are and the world (ship) being what it is, all you can do is choose a side and hope for the best as the rest isn't really up to you. Your choices won't always make the world a better place (the road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that).
Jonas is the only one who seeks an alliance with another independent faction. Even that is a long shot but it can work out in the end.
She's the weakest of the three (Jonas has more support, Braxton has his Regulators), so she'll need that deal with the Church the most.
Imagine working for Borgia and realizing what everyone working with him already knows - he isn't the most morally upstanding person. 'Exposing' him would be like announcing that water is wet.
It's not that he fooled everyone. And the in-game church isn't a purely spiritual organization but a military one as well. The Brotherhood and the Protectors would subjugate it in a heartbeat after they're done fighting each other, so the Chaplain-General isn't entirely wrong there.
I can totally understand where you are coming from and your reasoning, and even if i disagree with some if it, its your game and your vision for it, and i do really enjoy both.
I still think that the early characters of Jonas, Braxton and Mercy could be explored a little more so as the player can try and have a bit more info when making a choice.
One of the ways you did this actually that i really loved was the [Int] check that runs when talking to Braxton outside the Abes if you managed to talk the two gunmen out of starting a fight.
You hear gunshots outside and come out to find them dead, and i actually remember thinking, huh thats a bit weird. So i was super excited to see the prompt come up where you basically called him out saying "Yeah so these two dude were too chicken to shoot me in the shop, but they came out to like 8 armed and armoured men and opened fire?"
And by catching him out the mask drops and he goes, so what, i payed them to rough him up and they didnt.
That was awesome. And it gave me an insight into who he was, and what his morals were. It was that ultimately that lead to me deciding on Mercy because she was still an unknown.
I guess i was just hoping for some similar stuff for the other two.
Id even be fine with it being gated behind stat checks, maybe you have to be super perceptive to notice a folder in Jonas's office, and you can swipe it with steal and it has some vague plans about trying to find allies outside the ruling 3. Or something totally different.
And with Mercy, i can see there was a few things in her compound allowing you to sneak in there? I assume i just never triggered the mission that used them. But maybe the player can snoop about her "castle" and see that she has some plots in place to overthrow the mayor, or that shes got a letter from the church and they are mad at her and demanding subserbvience, or whatever message you want to convey.
Basically, just a few ways to learn a bit more about the two (three) mayor options before you have to pull the trigger. I remember before i actually commited to either i ran back and forward a few times to check if there was anything i could find that told me more about either, or convo options that did the same. I then delayed and did other quests around town to see if that gave me a feel too.
You dont have to speak directly to the player, if they just decide to throw in with one or the other the first time they meet them, great. Its probably in keeping for a bunch of characters not to actually care who wins, just wanting the cash.
I lol'd, breed the pope ftw!
Now don't take this as an insult against your writing but Colony Ship's leaders lack that charisma that AoD leaders had. You know, that magical pull that made you want to serve them just so to see how this crazy plot line will play out.
I'm not sure if you watched that Stalker video I shared in this thread; but it brings some interesting ideas regarding how some game's factions can push players away as their solutions tend to either be too extreme or too comically silly, which results in the player having a disconnect from the narrative; though I don't necessarily think this is a problem if the leaders are interesting charismatic characters, see: Mr. House, Caesar, the Master from Fallout 1, and Sheogorath from Oblivion.
So to go back to Colony Ship, you have these leaders but they don't really sell themselves to the player, and they don't make compelling arguments for why they should get the Machine. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it was only the Church that makes a compelling argument for why the should get the machine; one time when you talk to the archivist, and another time when you talk to the Pope. The other factions are just: pick me, I'm the lesser evil; or in the Monk's case it's: pick me or I'll kick your teeth in.
Disclaimer: please dont misunderstand, this post is because i like and care about the game and studio more studio tbh even thought what is written might not sound like it.
I didn't like the factions either. But what i really didnt like were the places for the 'head of the faction'. I can only imagine how much time and effort was put into making those and literaly NOTHING in them except some schmuck talking. They could have sat in a container for all i care functionally it does nothing.
What is even more infuriating is the potential. You see in protectors HQ the "high council meeting place" or w/e its called those descendants of 1st officers meeting and you can imagine how it could be cool to have shepard-council like meeting there where you just unleash hell or tell them to shove it or SOMETHING. Why bothing constructing it if its unused.
In Brotherhood you have some weird dome that you cant even exit right its too far away, the door should have been way closer. It wastes time, inconvenient and confusing. Ive been to the place 20+ times and every single time i click to exit and nothing because the exit is WAY over there you have to zoom and scroll to get out. The place looks quite opulent tho! you can image brothers or w/e gathering to discuss something, robots standing guard, maybe its roman like senate deal and you might get to ceasar mr Hanson, but no. Its nothing. Why?
In case of church its... how many people are even going to see the place? I feel like 70% of players will literally never see Mr Abraham. How many weeks went into that interior?
The 4th faction also suffers from the same issue, yes ESLCS or w/e its called has same issue that their HQ is desolate wasteland. You can have 50 npcs with dialog there but if there is nothing to do player will never again speak to them on subsequent playthroughs. Why bother constructing such memorable and good looking faction HQ locations when there is nothing in them. What is especially infuriating is that they have ultratech which we can't even touch. There could have been a vendor selling some premium grade upgrades at an insane price. Yes the upgrade guy is good, but he's not in the HQ is he?
So much work was put into a basically high end decorations its unfortunate.
I really like the game, but the Habitat is the weakest part of the game. I REALLY like the heart changes that were introduced btw. Outstanding work. Adding people on background, combined with machinery really completes the atmosphere, plus there is a lot to do! Its a great location made better.
Habitat just sucks. Unrealised potential. I think protectors have the best content atm, but it could have been better. Adding NPCs who only have dialog does nothing for replayability. Its not an activity. Yes its really good for exposition 1st time around, but when the game is designed for replayability you will NEVER talk again to npc who does nothing.
Again i know, Vince doesn't want a dlc because 'no room for it', 'we care about players', 'moral integrity', 'quality control' - but think about it:
A 'join faction politics' dlc where you get to actually join faction and have say a working senate with brotherhood, in quest chain you might make hanson the ultraconsolidated power source or ceasar the guy instead. If you do, he is replaced by said senate. Doesn't change the endings, adds content, encounters etc.
Protectors - interaction with 'founding father descendants council', expanding on the idea and we get to meet the ♥♥♥♥♥. Adds content. Doesn't change ending.
Church - ♥♥♥♥ em. I guess 'depose for fanning flames' where you expose them for being the worst scum and 'agressively replace' Abraham. But since you just replace the guy and weaken church position overall rather then fully destroy it it does't affect the ending. Maybe you become the Cult Leader like you were MEANT TO BE with a certain perk. Adds content, doesn't change ending.
ECSLL LLLSCS w/e - cybernetic overdose, you get to pick an implant only the greedy ♥♥♥♥♥ have if you choose their faction, along with some extra content to maybe acquire parts needed or SOMETHING. Possibilities are endless. Unexplored areas, scamming with n-tabs, bioreactors ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, levels to existing ones, take your pick. 80-90% of what i suggest outside of scripting and dialogs is already in the game.
There is your quality dlc that improves Habitat which would warrant asking for money for the dlc without compromising morals, no? Makes the game better, requires a lot of effort so the money is warranted, everything checks out, no?
Please dont become the next Troika games. I'd rather play outstanding Irontower games, pretty sure others do aswell, not fantasise about 'what could have been' while watching Vince's, Oscar's and Nick's youtube videos like Tim Caine or Leonard Boyarsky do nowadays. T.T