Devs: Most weapons suck, Blunt and Rifles are King.

[Asuzu]

So Blunt and Rifles are the only 2 weapons worth using.

Rifls stack crit damage like crazy, and Blunt just blows everything in 2 crits with stacked penetration, while the rest of the weapons are barely doing anything to heavily armored enemies.

The overall stats and passives on other weapons' melee and ranged scaling skill (e.g. Shotgunner/Sprayer/etc) are just so bad they stop doing any reasonable damage by the end of Act 1, when all enemies are practically tin cans. Even SMG with its penetration bonus falls off, and Bladed don't quite cut it (pun intended), but the worst offender of all are Shotguns, with less damage than Pistols. By God, do they suck hard.

E.g. Rifles get scaling accuracy and crit damage, while shotguns get... stagger, which is completely useless and bringing 0 damage onboard, because it's already 100% to hit whatever. And hey, literally any other weapon can stagger too.

@Vince As a shotgun user I completed pretty much entire game with a Rusty Doomsayer I got from Act 1 Courthouse, because all the way until the end there is no better Shotgun with good range/damage/penetration/hit%. Even after the Heart I still have it. I couldn't even find a normal variant of Doomsayer for sale or in loot until the game is over.

Jackhammer from Shadow's team sucks because more expensive attacks with same damage. New rapid fire shotguns like Spartan have bad range/damage/penetration jsut spamming grazes. Itemization feels bad, and in general when shotguns are both weaker than melee weapons and ranged, it sucks. I don't understand the point of lo-AP cost low-damage shotguns at all. If I want to spam attacks, that's what SMGs are for. The entire line of new generation of shotguns introduced to shops after Act 2 has worse stats across the board than a Rusty Doomsayer??

You would expect shotgun to be a high-damage / high-risk / high-reward weapon. Breach in, hug their face and unload into it for ze damages, but instead you are better off arming yourself with wet noodles.

All the while Rifles get awesome long-range options, short to mid-range assault options with burst, and heavy energy variants to toy with *better* damage than a freaking MK2 energy shotgun. Come on...

[Robineus]

I seem to do just fine using shotguns, pistols, submachine gun and rifle combo in a full party are you talking about a solo build?

[Asuzu]

Originally posted by Robineus:

I seem to do just fine using shotguns, pistols, submachine gun and rifle combo in a full party are you talking about a solo build?

Yes solo. In full party the game is piss-easy even on underdog.
Probably need Ironman mode from AoD to spice it up.

[Robineus]

You realise that your perspective is one from a very small group of people who find solo underdog piss easy? It's therefore not a very useful one for the devs to consider when it comes to design.

[Asuzu]

Originally posted by Robineus:

You realise that your perspective is one from a very small group of people who find solo underdog piss easy? It's therefore not a very useful one for the devs to consider when it comes to design.

You're probably right, I didn't think of it that way

At any rate, the point is weapon balancing, regardless if its solo or party.
Few weapons have very strong scaling passives, while other weapons get shafted in the damage department.

There's a reason most players ignore Faythe pistol gimmick and spec her for rifle, and so on.

[Robineus]

I wasn't aware of that, I use her for pistol or smg, she's frighteningly effective with either I guess I'll try a party full of riflemen later on and see.

[sovietxrobot]

Blunt weapons are the only class with an AoE attack which automatically makes them a tier above anything else.

[Sardonac]

Pistols are generally best for things like Bullseye from the energy pistols plus high crit normal attacks. You can fire Bullseye attacks for as low as 2 energy cells per shot with 50 penetration. Being able to knock out two targets per turn is consistently powerful, and the very high crit rate means your regular attacks with normal pistols are also great.


I would rate pistols as the best overall weapon, with rifles and shotguns roughly equal, smgs only work well with something like Faythe and her bonus armor pen. Blunt weapons scale very well, bladed are good enough.

[Asuzu]

Originally posted by sovietxrobot:

Blunt weapons are the only class with an AoE attack which automatically makes them a tier above anything else.

And this is where shotguns should be. An AoE attack in a cone would make them immediately amazingly viable.
Instead, shotguns get... scaling stagger, which is by far one of the most useless combat effects when compared to juicy crits, crit damage, and penetration of other weapons.
Best enemy is dead enemy from 1-shot by rifle or hammer, not a staggered one.
Even giving shotguns a stun-like special attack akin to Bullseye would at least alleviate some pain. But right now this is easily the worst weapon of the game, followed by bladed and SMG.

[Asuzu]

Originally posted by sovietxrobot:

Blunt weapons are the only class with an AoE attack which automatically makes them a tier above anything else.

It's no wonder Blunt blows everything out of the water with +2 scaling penetration with each skill level. I mean, look at the solo underdogs running around with 4-6 str and 2-shotting everything with a hammer. Does that seem ok with you?

And this is where shotguns should be. At least an AoE attack in a cone would make them immediately amazingly viable. Fixing their terrible stats and backwards progression, when newer models have lower damage that previous tier is whole another issue.

Instead, shotguns get... scaling stagger, which is by far one of the most useless combat effects when compared to juicy crits, crit damage, and penetration of other weapons.
Best enemy is dead enemy from 1-shot by rifle or hammer, not a staggered one.
Even giving shotguns a stun-like special attack akin to Bullseye would at least alleviate some pain. But right now this is easily the worst weapon of the game, followed by bladed and SMG.

Originally posted by Sardonac:

Pistols are generally best for things like Bullseye from the energy pistols plus high crit normal attacks. You can fire Bullseye attacks for as low as 2 energy cells per shot with 50 penetration. Being able to knock out two targets per turn is consistently powerful, and the very high crit rate means your regular attacks with normal pistols are also great.
I would rate pistols as the best overall weapon, with rifles and shotguns roughly equal, smgs only work well with something like Faythe and her bonus armor pen. Blunt weapons scale very well, bladed are good enough.

Yeah Bullseye is very strong attack. Rifles also feature it and no wonder they are on top tier. It feels bad when even pistols are stronger than Shotguns, no idea what the testers were smoking.

Now, don't get me wrong. You can finish the game with shotguns.
I killed Ol'Bub on underdog solo with a Rusty Doomsayer (because no better shotgun was available anywhere). Can be done and not even that hard if you know the mechanics, tune your gear, char, and consumables.

But it pains me to see this weapon so heavily dumped on by devs. Finding Combat Shotgun in Fallout was like looting Holy Fiery Sword of Jesus. In CS, it's a dumpster tier vendor trash.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I would rather use shotgun than blunt. Regular shot with shotgun costs only 4 AP, has excellent accuracy and crit, and requires no investment in STR. Power attacks with blunt are both expensive in AP and have mediocre accuracy.

[Asuzu]

Originally posted by Wrath of Dagon:

I would rather use shotgun than blunt. Regular shot with shotgun costs only 4 AP, has excellent accuracy and crit, and requires no investment in STR. Power attacks with blunt are both expensive in AP and have mediocre accuracy.

Wait until you meet and greet properly armored enemies and your best shotgun does 2 damage on aimed weak spot critical shots. Then you will realize why Blunt with its scaling penetration and Rifles with their scaling crit damage are bae.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Don't really know what you're talking about, also shotgun has an excellent energy option to use when ballistic isn't good enough (mostly needed against Bub, robots, and floaters).

[grraf]

Originally posted by Wrath of Dagon:

I would rather use shotgun than blunt. Regular shot with shotgun costs only 4 AP, has excellent accuracy and crit, and requires no investment in STR. Power attacks with blunt are both expensive in AP and have mediocre accuracy.

Precise strike feat would like to say : 'sup brah long time no see ?!'

Originally posted by Asuzu:

Originally posted by Wrath of Dagon:

I would rather use shotgun than blunt. Regular shot with shotgun costs only 4 AP, has excellent accuracy and crit, and requires no investment in STR. Power attacks with blunt are both expensive in AP and have mediocre accuracy.

Wait until you meet and greet properly armored enemies and your best shotgun does 2 damage on aimed weak spot critical shots. Then you will realize why Blunt with its scaling penetration and Rifles with their scaling crit damage are bae.

Are we even playing the same f'in game chav ?! judgement comes in nice and quick as soon as you hit the habitat, non rusty doomsayer can be had at the latest after armory ambush(sooner even but can't recall from where so don't quote me on that)
and the frigging black guard is yours as soon as you kill Azrael.
The on the energy shotgun side of things ya got the rattle snake that only eats 3 cells per shot &can double shot for just 6AP(As soon as CH1 last courthouse battle) and then there is the 'big papa pump' MK2 that boasts 22-24 DMG with +20 penetration and +10 crit and this mofo is up for grabs as soon as you come back from the habitat(presuming ya have a 10 in either lockpicks or comps)

[Wrath of Dagon]

Originally posted by grraf:

Originally posted by Wrath of Dagon:

I would rather use shotgun than blunt. Regular shot with shotgun costs only 4 AP, has excellent accuracy and crit, and requires no investment in STR. Power attacks with blunt are both expensive in AP and have mediocre accuracy.

Precise strike feat would like to say : 'sup brah long time no see ?!'

Damage output would be a concern there, and still pretty high cost compared to shotgun regular.

[Asuzu]

Originally posted by grraf:

Are we even playing the same f'in game chav ?! judgement comes in nice and quick as soon as you hit the habitat, non rusty doomsayer can be had at the latest after armory ambush(sooner even but can't recall from where so don't quote me on that)
and the frigging black guard is yours as soon as you kill Azrael.
The on the energy shotgun side of things ya got the rattle snake that only eats 3 cells per shot &can double shot for just 6AP(As soon as CH1 last courthouse battle) and then there is the 'big papa pump' MK2 that boasts 22-24 DMG with +20 penetration and +10 crit and this mofo is up for grabs as soon as you come back from the habitat(presuming ya have a 10 in either lockpicks or comps)

Amen, but Judgement is worse than a Rusty Doomsayer :)
All stats worse across the board. Worse range, accuracy, clip size, w/e else don't remember. Yes, 4 AP attack, who cares if its resisted by any reasonable armor?

Again, same problem - it's 4 AP cost shotgun with trash stats compared to 5/6 AP cost weapons. What is the point of that weapon? Shoot more? That's what Doublefire Doomsayer / Burst Jackhammer are for. Why it's considered a higher tier weapon when it's worse than the weapon you get in Act1? Lower AP cost doesn't mean anything when you are doing 2 damage on crits with it and have to facehug your opponents because its range is trash.

And tbh if I kill Azrael, that's pretty much game almost finished, there's nothing else interesting to kill. So I am guessing I kill him with a Rusty Doomsayer, get my one and only awesome shotgun in the game, rejoice, and end the game.

Maenwhile, as a rifle player you get all cool toys, all the way to freakin' machine guns, which are available all the way across the game, and doing more and more damage, while shotguns in shops keep doing less and less damage because omg 4AP cost attack, which, surprise, is not doing any damage. And btw access to short / long / focused burst just blows any shotgun out of the water, since they cannot even hope to get close on damage department.

Btw MK2 energy shotgun is hot trash, just compare it to Heavy Energy Rifle you can simply buy in the Heart without even needing 10s in skills. If you mean +20 acc +10 pen from energy trait, any other build will have it too, making other weapons better in every way.