Black Hand Sneak Mission

[jerr0]

I killed everyone with my assassin, but my computer specialist is locked up and it seems like I can't finish the quest. Why am I still sneaking if everyone is dead? Why can't I use my whole team to loot and use the computer after the place is clear? I'm aware I can just leave to the Habitat, but that feels so lame. Am I just screwed out of the good quest ending because I didn't specialize in sneak and computers on the same character? It just seems crazy that they're on the other side of an unlocked door and the only thing stopping them from waltzing on out and using the computer is.... ?

[Sardonac]

Its generally recommended to have most of the sneak/tech skills on the same character. That's why Faythe is built the way she is. You can mostly get around it since there are trainers in the game for Biotech, Computers, etc so that even if your stealth specialist is just Lockpick/Steal/Sneak they can still have 3-4 in trainable skills without sapping skill levels from your primary characters.

[jerr0]

Originally posted by Sardonac:

Its generally recommended to have most of the sneak/tech skills on the same character. That's why Faythe is built the way she is. You can mostly get around it since there are trainers in the game for Biotech, Computers, etc so that even if your stealth specialist is just Lockpick/Steal/Sneak they can still have 3-4 in trainable skills without sapping skill levels from your primary characters.

I need a 6 in computers for that part. So I pretty much have to build everyone a certain way to see the good stuff. I still feel like the sneaking section should end after I've killed everyone the same way it would with a combat section. It doesn't make sense to me.

[TotallyNotEvilBean]

If you succeed in the Black Hand mission Franz Ferdinand doesn't get assassinated and you have world war 1 at a later date, simple as.

[stadtpark-hartmut]

It would make sense, I'll give you that.

But this is a Min-Max-game. The moment you read the description of Skill Monkey (- bonus xp affecting Science Skills AND Stealth Skills), it should have made "click" in your mind: Science and Stealth skills go on the same Char. Either Faythe (who gets additional bonus xp on the Stealth skills, if she has Thief), or MainChar (- in case you want to choose Assassin feat for Faythe). - For the level 10 Computer / Electronics / Lockpick checks, you not only need Skill Monkey, you also need to tag them.

That's why the "all content doable / never fail a skillcheck"-Skill Monkey-build in the end pretty much looks the same way in a lot of the usually maximized "Player Submitted Builds".

This game (on Underdog) forces you to adapt not only to the game mechanics (=laws of nature), but also to the side-conditions (=history of the world) to be successful. For which you usually have to have hindsight / metaknowledge: even extreme Min-Max-OCD intuition doesn't tell you beforehand how much sneaking or talking you actually have to do, to keep both approaches viable on the long run: nobody ever did his most optimized build in the first playthrough.

Edit: some point way back (like two years ago) in EarlyAccess Mastermind gave additional skillpoints / learning points as bonus, but that no longer is the case, so even a MainChar now needs Skill Monkey AND tags, if he wants to beat all the Science checks (and lockpick) - a Healing Factor Mainchar can get away without the Biotech tag though - as seen in this build by Arday https://steamcommunity.com/app/648410/discussions/0/3954784199556942748/?ctp=4#c3975051362888935575


P.S.: There is no grinding whatsoever possible in this game: the amount of possible xp, as well as the amount of possible skillpoints in combat (tied per each enemy on their death; offensive and defensive) as well as the amount of available skillpoints from skillchecks and Tokens is exactly accounted for. Same for the loot. - This game is completely handcrafted and honed to what it is: no respawns, no random loot, no enemy has any random equipment nor feat. - It is completely handcrafted and is completely determined: you will get exactly the same outcome for the same actions each time. - The only random things in the game are "hits and misses" in combat, and thus who is getting which share of the combat lp: and some players even try to influence that by not bringing a character, or always skipping his turn, or staying out of Line of Sight, so the combat lp goes to the preffered team member more.

By the end you will know every NPC by name, and every branch of every quest (- if you repeat the game often enough).

[jerr0]

Originally posted by stadtpark-hartmut:

It would make sense, I'll give you that.

But this is a Min-Max-game. The moment you read the description of Skill Monkey (- bonus xp affecting Science Skills AND Stealth Skills), it should have made "click" in your mind: Science and Stealth skills go on the same Char. Either Faythe (who gets additional bonus xp on the Stealth skills, if she has Thief), or MainChar (- in case you want to choose Assassin feat for Faythe). - For the level 10 Computer / Electronics / Lockpick checks, you not only need Skill Monkey, you also need to tag them.

That's why the "all content doable / never fail a skillcheck"-Skill Monkey-build in the end pretty much looks the same way in a lot of the usually maximized "Player Submitted Builds".

I'm not gonna know every NPC by name cause this frustrated me enough to the point of giving up on the game. I browsed other people discussing similar situations and the answer is always "build Faythe up" or "make a character exactly like Faythe," "skill monkey".

The fact there is only one good build seems pretty inflexible for an RPG. I get min-maxing, but this isn't missing some loot or a side quest, it's the culmination of this section of the game. I'm stuck in this area, every NPC is talking about this situation, and everything leads to this place. It stinks that my only option is to leave like a wuss. It's also pretty immersion breaking because the only reason they can't leave the cell is some arbitrary video game reason.

[flaviolunardon]

Originally posted by jerr0:

Originally posted by Sardonac:

Its generally recommended to have most of the sneak/tech skills on the same character. That's why Faythe is built the way she is. You can mostly get around it since there are trainers in the game for Biotech, Computers, etc so that even if your stealth specialist is just Lockpick/Steal/Sneak they can still have 3-4 in trainable skills without sapping skill levels from your primary characters.

I need a 6 in computers for that part. So I pretty much have to build everyone a certain way to see the good stuff. I still feel like the sneaking section should end after I've killed everyone the same way it would with a combat section. It doesn't make sense to me.

I managed to finish the infiltration with my murderhobo solo, so I'm pretty sure the computer 6 is not mandatory
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3088363904

[stadtpark-hartmut]

Edit: so I checked back in the game

Let's recount the ways the Black Hand Fortress can be solved;
- Frontal Assault
- Diplo / Talking
- Sneaking (plus Computer Skill check in stages).
- Failing Diplo or Failing Sneaking (= Hidden Black Hand Achievement)

I still agree: it would have been nice to be able to bring your Computer expert in after everyone else on the lower floors is dead. - But there's already 4 ways to complete that step. - Just reload and decide for one of the others. Or replay with a different build.

You can't do everything with every build. You have to adapt to the game's systems and environments. Which means more than one playthrough, if you truly want to see everyting. Btw: the Diplo solution is pretty funny.

You need at least Computers 3 to get access to the Main Elevator to the Habitat.

Computers 3 can be achieved from Computers 1 by paying the Computers teacher in Hydroponics (Green) 2nd Floor. - Which means: you have to reload an older save and redo the Factory, if you don't want to fail yourself forward, as you can't fast travel from the Factory back to Hydroponics, once you have left The Pit for the Factory (- end of Chapter One).

If you have Computers 4 you can in addition activate the turrets. But then you have to return to your cell and wait for Stanton to get to you.

If you have Computers 6, you can go up and loot Dumont and his two Bodyguards, which were killed by activating the turrets.



So, the way I read this is: the game signalling "you could have done better, come prepared next time you play this puzzle and see the better outcomes".

The way you read this is: The game makes me fail forward or restart. I don't want to fail forwards under these circumstances, I also don't want to restart / go back to a pre-factory save and spend money on Computer training and having to redo the Factory all over again: I'm mad at the game and will stop playing.

[flaviolunardon]

Originally posted by stadtpark-hartmut:

@flaviolunardon I guess you just went up that Elevator and killed Dumont then? I never tried that: doesn't he automatically catch you? Is there a way to "Start Combat" from this sneaking section? I never actually tried.

Or did you fail your way to the Habitat? (= Black Hand Achievement)

Let's recount the ways the Black Hand Fortress can be solved;
- Frontal Assault
- Diplo / Talking
- Sneaking (plus Computer Skill check in stages).
- Failing Diplo or Failing Sneaking (= Hidden Black Hand Achievement)

I still agree: it would have been nice to be able to bring your Computer expert in after everyone else on the lower floors is dead. - But there's already 4 ways to complete that step. - Just reload and decide for one of the others. Or replay with a different build.

You can't do everything with every build. You have to adapt to the game's systems and environments. Which means more than one playthrough, if you truly want to see everyting. Btw: the Diplo solution is pretty funny.

No, I got the Infiltrator achievement. I'm pretty sure there is no way to start combat during the sneak sequence since when they spot you you get escorted to the Habitat. I had no sneak feat, tons of AP and CS. From what I remember I killed all the guys at the starting floor, reached the 4th floor, killed the two guys staring out of the window, left alone the guys in the room with the locked door, and barely managed to kill ('cause he was pretty alerted) the other guy (was him Dumont? I didn't check) then I get back to my cell and waited Stanton.. hope this helps someone

[Yojo0o]

Originally posted by jerr0:

Originally posted by stadtpark-hartmut:

It would make sense, I'll give you that.

But this is a Min-Max-game. The moment you read the description of Skill Monkey (- bonus xp affecting Science Skills AND Stealth Skills), it should have made "click" in your mind: Science and Stealth skills go on the same Char. Either Faythe (who gets additional bonus xp on the Stealth skills, if she has Thief), or MainChar (- in case you want to choose Assassin feat for Faythe). - For the level 10 Computer / Electronics / Lockpick checks, you not only need Skill Monkey, you also need to tag them.

That's why the "all content doable / never fail a skillcheck"-Skill Monkey-build in the end pretty much looks the same way in a lot of the usually maximized "Player Submitted Builds".

I'm not gonna know every NPC by name cause this frustrated me enough to the point of giving up on the game. I browsed other people discussing similar situations and the answer is always "build Faythe up" or "make a character exactly like Faythe," "skill monkey".

The fact there is only one good build seems pretty inflexible for an RPG. I get min-maxing, but this isn't missing some loot or a side quest, it's the culmination of this section of the game. I'm stuck in this area, every NPC is talking about this situation, and everything leads to this place. It stinks that my only option is to leave like a wuss. It's also pretty immersion breaking because the only reason they can't leave the cell is some arbitrary video game reason.

Who says there's only one good build? There's a specific criteria for this mission, sure, but the stealth approach to the Black Hand situation is just one of several options for resolving this part of the game. You could also talk your way through hit, or go with a frontal assault, and possibly other options as well.

[jerr0]

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Who says there's only one good build? There's a specific criteria for this mission, sure, but the stealth approach to the Black Hand situation is just one of several options for resolving this part of the game. You could also talk your way through hit, or go with a frontal assault, and possibly other options as well.

As I've been looking through these discussions it seems like there will be more quests where you need both sneak and computers. Within 5 seconds of browsing there's a thread where someone had a similar complaint for "To Stop The War!".

On top of that there's a snowball effect now where I miss out on sneak/crit xp if I go the combat route all because this character doesn't have as much computer knowledge as the person in an unlocked cell with no guards in sight. It just doesn't make sense to me.

[stadtpark-hartmut]

On the one hand: I get it. Would be nice. Less frustrating.
On the other hand: would it? There already are 4 ways to get through the Black Hand Fort. And if you can't get the solution you wanted, I'm afraid you have to adapt your playthrough / your build. - That will happen more than once in this game. It is made so you have to adapt, or live with the consequences.

People have spent literally 100+ hours in order to find optimized "Hybrid"-builds that can do a Lone Wolf without ever failing a check. Look up Arday's build. (Edit: Oh, I already linked that in my last answer, sorry - got distracted by my own self-righteousness /s)
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3088309387

Others (like me) are content with almost no skillcheck failures on a team-build.

Again others just want 100% Combat Reputation and don't care about science skll-checks and the very best loot.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3077462889

It is quite comon having to adapt your playthrough and do restarts. Not every build is viable for everything.


This being said: the game can be played through on a long weekend. It is meant to be replayed, if you care for optimized outcomes.

If you don't care about outcomes / fails, you will never be stuck.
Let me get Huggybears playthrough "non-build" linked for you.

Here you go:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/648410/discussions/0/3172198151251693365/?ctp=102#c3881599865337335273

This was pre-release: As you can see from the Exploration Reputation 65 (Trailblazer), He probably didn't end up on the bridge (- which would be Navigator: Exploration Rating 83)

To get onto the bridge, AFAIK you need one of the two Bridge Officer Chips installed on a Neural / Int-Implant. One you can get from the Eye-Heist; the other is on the Lander (lowest level of Misson Control). You don't need both, but you can get both.


https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3065868064
Don't ask me how he got to Level 6 like that. Almost level 7 speech skills without a tag and with Cha 4. - That must have been the most untalented Diplomat ever, yet he made xp with every talk... - tbh: I wonder how he did this without getting killed... - this playthrough is a strange art in and of itself.


P.S.: For comparison: My own playthrough post-release with the screenshot done right before entering the tunnel to the bridge: Exploration Rating 62 (!) is also Trailblazer: - even three points less than Huggybears pre-release Troll-play/failthrough.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3080857999

P.P.S.:
Currently probably less people have finished this game, than have flown to space on a Rocket. You are not forced to play, but I think it's still very much worth it. But hey: I'm a fanboy.

[Shizmoo]

Originally posted by jerr0:

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Who says there's only one good build? There's a specific criteria for this mission, sure, but the stealth approach to the Black Hand situation is just one of several options for resolving this part of the game. You could also talk your way through hit, or go with a frontal assault, and possibly other options as well.

As I've been looking through these discussions it seems like there will be more quests where you need both sneak and computers. Within 5 seconds of browsing there's a thread where someone had a similar complaint for "To Stop The War!".

On top of that there's a snowball effect now where I miss out on sneak/crit xp if I go the combat route all because this character doesn't have as much computer knowledge as the person in an unlocked cell with no guards in sight. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Its just how the game is designed, you need foreknowledge of events to know what skill level you need. Someone needs to make a guide on skill checks and locations, highest, etc..