How to train skills?

[wolfling]

Is there any other way to train skills than "learning by doing" and the (ultra rare) training tokens?
I'd love to love the game, but currently I'm just running around, trying to find a spot where I could use lockpicking/computer so I can get past another door. Learning by doing sounds great in open world, but with options to train being so limited, it's kinda a hassle.

[skaudus]

There are trainers you can find around for specific skills.

By the way, checking the "Permanent outlines" option in the options menu highlights every interactable object and NPC in the overworld. I always have it on.

Reading datapads (especially in the Mission Control area) also gives you free Computers experience.

You can get past every mandatory check in the game with 3-4 in the related civic skill, everything higher than that is optional loot.

Tagging also gives a massive boost to your skill, it's a permanent (+2), on top of your skill progression. So going from tagged 5->6 is the same as going from untagged 3->4.

[Vince]

Originally posted by wolfling:

Is there any other way to train skills than "learning by doing" and the (ultra rare) training tokens?
I'd love to love the game, but currently I'm just running around, trying to find a spot where I could use lockpicking/computer so I can get past another door. Learning by doing sounds great in open world, but with options to train being so limited, it's kinda a hassle.

Can you post your character screen for feedback purposes?

There are skill trainers here and there. Keep in mind that you don't have to get past every door and use every computer. There are no mandatory quest objectives hidden behind locked doors.

As for the skill usage mentioned in your review, here are some player submitted builds:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3009082520

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3003221141

As you can see, some players can raise these skills very high, others easily do without them (edit: talking about the main character).

[wizard1200]

Originally posted by skaudus:

There are trainers you can find around for specific skills.

... everything higher than that is optional loot.

But why only for SPECIFIC skills? I think that it would be MUCH better if there would be a trainer for every skill.

If the corresponding loot makes the following fights MUCH easier, it is not THAT optional in my opinion.

[skaudus]

There are currently trainers for:
- Biotech x2
- Computers
- Electronics
- Persuasion
- Lockpick
- Steal

With plenty of free opportunities for Computers and Electronics, as well as skill tokens for anything you might be lacking in. You can easily get your untagged skills to 5-6 and get most of the loot.

There aren't any mandatory fights in the game, and you can do most of the optional fights at any time, so missing out on loot is a moot point. Even so, said loot is hardly mandatory. It is absolutely possible to do a full combat run without any tech skills.

If you struggle, you can set them aside for later, after you've gotten more XP, better companions and equipment from stores.

[wizard1200]

Originally posted by skaudus:

There are currently trainers for:
- Biotech x2
- Computers
- Electronics
- Persuasion
- Lockpick
- Steal

... as well as skill tokens for anything you might be lacking in.

There aren't any mandatory fights in the game, and you can do most of the optional fights at any time, so missing out on loot is a moot point. Even so, said loot is hardly mandatory. It is absolutely possible to do a full combat run without any tech skills.

The list of trainers, which are for some artifical reason NOT in the game, is sadly much longer:
- Bladed
- Blunt
- Pistol
- Shotgun
- Rifle
- SMG
- Critical Strike
- Evasion
- Armor
- Streetwise
- Impersonate
- Sneak

These skill tokens are also artifically restricted to certain skill combinations.

This claim may be true for an experienced player, but certainly not for a new player.

[Vince]

There are plenty of opportunities to boost your combat skills (9 out of 12 skills you listed) in combat. Sneaking and speech don't seem to be a problem either.

Boosting other non-combat skills could be harder (if they are non-tagged), which is why we added trainers.

[wizard1200]

Originally posted by Vince:

There are plenty of opportunities to boost your combat skills (9 out of 12 skills you listed) in combat.

Boosting other non-combat skills could be harder (if they are non-tagged), which is why we added trainers.

If you follow this logic there should be no skill tokens for combat skills, but they are available in Colony Ship, while the corresponding trainers are missing.

[wolfling]

Originally posted by Vince:

Can you post your character screen for feedback purposes?

https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197993698924/screenshot/2052007298030709417/

There are skill trainers here and there. Keep in mind that you don't have to get past every door and use every computer. There are no mandatory quest objectives hidden behind locked doors.

Thing is, unless I know the walkthrough, I can't tell which quest is mandatory. Plain and simple, I'm stuck. Maybe I didn't talk with the right NPC, or maybe I need to get further in Mission control or Armory, hard to say. From what you say probably the former, but the game doesn't tell me that, so I've guessed I just need to find a way to bypass doors.[/quote]

As you can see, some players can raise these skills very high, others easily do without them (edit: talking about the main character).

I'm not doubting it's possible, I'm just saying it's not fun. There are definitely some corpses scattered over Hydroponics that I haven't yet robbed of their implants, because I didn't have high enough skill. Now I have it, but it really feels like a chore to go through already cleared area and get some implants I don't really need, just to improve my biotech.

Don't get me wrong, the idea of learning by doing is pretty nice, but it just feels weird in a world with limited number of skillchecks. Since the training only happens on success, the skill is the easier to train, the higher it is, because it can be used in many places. The lower it is, the more difficult it is to train it, because everywhere it just says "you can't, skill too low". Which is just weird.

[wizard1200]

Originally posted by wolfling:

Don't get me wrong, the idea of learning by doing is pretty nice, but it just feels weird in a world with limited number of skillchecks. Since the training only happens on success, the skill is the easier to train, the higher it is, because it can be used in many places. The lower it is, the more difficult it is to train it, because everywhere it just says "you can't, skill too low". Which is just weird.

Exactly! A learning-by-doing mechanic CAN be great, but the game MUST provide enough opportunities to increase a skill, either by using it or by paying a trainer. An example of a game with such a mechanic is The Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall in my opinion.

[Vince]

Originally posted by wizard1200:

Originally posted by wolfling:

Don't get me wrong, the idea of learning by doing is pretty nice, but it just feels weird in a world with limited number of skillchecks. Since the training only happens on success, the skill is the easier to train, the higher it is, because it can be used in many places. The lower it is, the more difficult it is to train it, because everywhere it just says "you can't, skill too low". Which is just weird.

Exactly! A learning-by-doing mechanic CAN be great, but the game MUST provide enough opportunities to increase a skill, either by using it or by paying a trainer. An example of a game with such a mechanic is The Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall in my opinion.

I love Daggerfall but Bethesda's design has always been about making you the master of all skills and guilds. Our design goals are different as you very well know.

Originally posted by wizard1200:

If you follow this logic there should be no skill tokens for combat skills, but they are available in Colony Ship, while the corresponding trainers are missing.

The tokens serve a different purpose. In most cases they're a reward for exploration whereas the skills trainers represent a simple exchange: skills for money.

[wolfling]

Originally posted by wizard1200:

Exactly! A learning-by-doing mechanic CAN be great, but the game MUST provide enough opportunities to increase a skill, either by using it or by paying a trainer. An example of a game with such a mechanic is The Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall in my opinion.

That's basically my point. It's great in open world where the character simply gets good at the skill he's using, naturally adapting to the player's style. In "closed world" kind of game, it becomes a hunt for skillcheck nodes.

I naturally don't expect the devs to completely remodel the game, but it's my personal biggest frustration with it. And I find it really good otherwise (at least so far, I assume I'm not too far into it).

[Vince]

Originally posted by wolfling:

Thing is, unless I know the walkthrough, I can't tell which quest is mandatory. Plain and simple, I'm stuck.

Stuck where?

...so I've guessed I just need to find a way to bypass doors.

Definitely not.

Don't get me wrong, the idea of learning by doing is pretty nice, but it just feels weird in a world with limited number of skillchecks. Since the training only happens on success, the skill is the easier to train, the higher it is, because it can be used in many places. The lower it is, the more difficult it is to train it, because everywhere it just says "you can't, skill too low". Which is just weird.

You non-combat skills look pretty good. You should be able to clear most problems with speech alone, electronics and computers providing good bonus to the experience. Your lockpick isn't bad either (depends on where you are in the game), you simply can't open all doors, which is fine.

[wolfling]

Originally posted by Vince:

Stuck where?

I may have figured it out in the meantime, I needed to progress the quest with Jonax vs. Braxton.

You non-combat skills look pretty good. You should be able to clear most problems with speech alone, electronics and computers providing good bonus to the experience. Your lockpick isn't bad either (depends on where you are in the game), you simply can't open all doors, which is fine.

And I appreciate that the game really supports a choice of playstyle and allows to play noncombat role. Sometimes it feels a bit weird, but so far never forced. One can really talk his way out of most situations.

Maybe the problem isn't really skills, but rather communicating what the game wants from the player. Even as little as marking main quest/side quests might help, because when I'm stuck on something, I just try to progress in areas I haven't yet fully explored, hoping that one of the quests yields and progresses me somewhere. If it was clear that some quests aren't the main storyline, I wouldn't focus so much on getting behind every locked door.

[Vince]

Originally posted by wolfling:

Originally posted by Vince:

Stuck where?

I may have figured it out in the meantime, I needed to progress the quest with Jonax vs. Braxton.

The frontal assault would probably be too hard for this character, so tell them that you aren't much of a fighter. You'll get an alternative quest you'd be able to handle with speech and/or some tech skills.

Maybe the problem isn't really skills, but rather communicating what the game wants from the player. Even as little as marking main quest/side quests might help, because when I'm stuck on something, I just try to progress in areas I haven't yet fully explored, hoping that one of the quests yields and progresses me somewhere. If it was clear that some quests aren't the main storyline, I wouldn't focus so much on getting behind every locked door.

Good idea. Thank you for the feedback.

[Pink Eye]

Originally posted by wolfling:

I may have figured it out in the meantime, I needed to progress the quest with Jonax vs. Braxton.

Seems a lot of players get stuck on this one, no clue why, since you can get an easier encounter if you tell them you're not a fighter.