Non-combat seems to be a trap

[burningmime]

Here's what I mean... if you choose to take a peaceful route out -- persuasion/streetwise instead of killing someone -- you miss out on a ton of gear as well as the chance to level your combat stats. You level your streetwise/persuasion of course... but then suddenly you'll run into a situation which can't be solved in that manner, and suddenly you're low level and undergeared (and unless you min-max like crazy, the game is already hard enough). I've found that murder spreees are the best policy.

Combine that with having Faythe steal from every shopkeeper, and I feel like I'm just role-playing a super ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. But if you don't, you hit a wall where some encounter is impassible.

[Mechalibur]

It's not really a trap if you never get into combat. The game is designed to be beatable with no combat whatsoever.

Not that it's particularly engaging imo, but it's not a trap if that's how you want to play.

[Robineus]

This is why I stand behind the high int 10 cha 10 per 8 build, high perception often warns you that you're about to attempt a really combat heavy situation with that talker build. i'm pretty sure none of the main quests require combat though AoD had moments like this as well.

[Robineus]

What really needs some balancing is that having streetwise tagged and nothing else will carry you through every single convo check in chapter 1 then you hit 2 and all of a sudden there are all these really high impersonate checks with no streetwise option and you're left feeling wtf? Either it's an intentional A$$hole design or it needs some balancing pronto.

[burningmime]

Originally posted by Mechalibur:

It's not really a trap if you never get into combat. The game is designed to be beatable with no combat whatsoever.

Not that it's particularly engaging imo, but it's not a trap if that's how you want to play.

Do you mean just the main quest? 'Cause I'm sure there are side quests that require at least some combat to complete. For example, how would you get 3 psychic frog brains without combat?

[skaudus]

Can you be more specific regarding which encounter you couldn't solve via speech?

Big caveat is that training opportunities haven't been implemented yet for the Habitat, so you're meant to be able to raise your skill a little more.

There are definitely some questlines and paths that mandate combat, but you can definitely do most of everything non-combat, and I'm not sure of any "gotcha" moments.

For reference, here's a build that solved every possible quest and interaction via peaceful dialogue, and still did every single optional combat encounter. The speech part is the easy one, and you can definitely invest more into it.

I wanted to see if you could do it without any tags, and you can, but it requires some min-maxing. If you want to forego combat altogether, it's very straightforward to tag one, two or even all of the speech tags and then pass through everything with flying colours.

Originally posted by skaudus:

Finally done with my new iteration of the Cult Leader build. I went for maximum initial disposition to see if I could pass every single speech check without tags.

Turns out, after the recent adjustment to disposition penalties, I could!

I've mostly pitted the Habitat factions against each other, ended up offering the machine to the Church, for now. Long-term goals are to help Jonas build a strong independent Pit.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2821388774
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2821389131

^MC turned out to be quite a capable combatant, especially by the time I finished the Habitat. Next feat will probably be Pistolero. Other than that, he's very tanky, so zero chance of him being focused down. I even got [Steal 4], thanks to all the passive skill increases.


https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2821389009
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2821389222

^Jed's been useful, as usual, getting in people's faces and pulling triggers, while also functioning as an off-tank.


https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2821389049
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2821389266

^Evans was the usual rifleman, his Bullseyes very useful for alpha-striking strong targets.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2821389096
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2821389330

^Faythe went for SMGs this time. Picked [Charger] on her since she also liked to get in people's faces. Against ranged opponents the distortion field was enough to protect her. Melee opponents usually didn't make it that far.

So, turns out that even without going all-in on combat, parties of 4 are very strong. Alpha striking dangerous targets with stims is one of the safest strategies in the game, and you can pretty much pull it off every time. The most notable exception was Tom Thumb in the Church area, who, even after several reloads to prove my point, was always left at 1-5 HP. No biggie.

So, to be more specific, where did you feel forced into combat?

[skaudus]

Originally posted by burningmime:

Here's what I mean... if you choose to take a peaceful route out -- persuasion/streetwise instead of killing someone -- you miss out on a ton of gear as well as the chance to level your combat stats.

So, if you want to go non-combat, the issue is that your character won't be good at combat?

The extra combat content is only really useful for combat chars anyway, with the exception of one of the mutation feats.

[burningmime]

Originally posted by skaudus:

So, to be more specific, where did you feel forced into combat?

Is there a way to install Braxton as leader of the Pit (or take down Braxton?) without shooting someone?

This is mostly just an impression I have; I've only played like 15 hours. Maybe there are ways to solve every encounter.

[skaudus]

Yes, you have to tell Jonas that you're not much of a fighter when he sends you to assault the HQ.

He then sends you to intercept the Regulator reinforcements, which you can solve without bloodshed.

It is true that you can't install Mercy as Pit Leader without combat though, but Jonas and Braxton are okay.

[Cununculus]

The main quest is doable without fights, but then you need to heavily invest in the Charisma skills.

You can only support either Jonas or Braxton, but not Mercy.
(To support Mercy, choose Braxton first, persuade Mercy to join him and follow the combat-options)

Combat has a steep learning curve.
Going to the Courthouse helps with that.

I prefer a blend of talking and fighting, but then must be carefull which fights to pick, especially in the Factory and Habitat.

[burningmime]

Guess I was wrong, looks like you can do non-combat play throughs. Which is neat. So it's just it's hybrid that's punished and I should be choosing one path or the other.

Fair enough; this is a valid game design decision. It's different from most other RPGs where a blend of combat and non-combat will get you what you need, but it does make sense.

EDIT: Actually thinking more about it, this isn't a bad thing at all. It actually makes sense that if you shoot people, you get experience shooting people, and if you persuade people, you get experience persuading people. Just wish it was more explicit about it upfront.

[Vince]

Most quests have non-combat solutions, so you can easily beat the game without fighting, relying either on pure diplomacy or a mix of speech, stealth, and tech. You are never forced to fight unless you explicitly pick this option.

Some quests and situation can only be resolved with combat, just like some quests and situations can only be resolved with diplomacy or stealth, but such quests are always optional.

About the hybrids; yes, playing a fighter/talker is the hardest path as you have to carefully balance your combat and speech skills, but at the same time it's the most rewarding path as you can do a lot more than a pure fighter or talker.

[burningmime]

Originally posted by Vince:

Most quests have non-combat solutions, so you can easily beat the game without fighting, relying either on pure diplomacy or a mix of speech, stealth, and tech. You are never forced to fight unless you explicitly pick this option.

Some quests and situation can only be resolved with combat, just like some quests and situations can only be resolved with diplomacy or stealth, but such quests are always optional.

About the hybrids; yes, playing a fighter/talker is the hardest path as you have to carefully balance your combat and speech skills, but at the same time it's the most rewarding path as you can do a lot more than a pure fighter or talker.

Cool; thanks for the clarification!

[Pink Eye]

>Non-combat seems a trap
No. It's not. A trap assumes that the developers deviously devised a choice meant to antagonize the player in a way that locks their progresses or whatever. That's not how that works. You usually can figure out if a build is a bust in first hour of playing (meaning if you create a talker and realize you can't pass relevant checks. Or you roll a fighter and discover you're struggling with easy enemies.); the game gives you immediate feedback about these things.

Anyways. Tangent aside. As to the question on hand. This character did all the relevant content without combat:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2808263746

If you're going to roll a character that doesn't engage in combat, then you stick to that archetype and don't engage in combat. Colony Ship is a role playing game first and foremost, meaning character builds aren't some aesthetic choice where it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Sure. There are things you're going to miss out on. Ah well. That's life. You can't have a character that's never shot a gun before and immediately expect him to be a proficient fighter. That doesn't make sense. That's like wanting your cake and eating it.

[burningmime]

Originally posted by Pink Eye:

>Non-combat seems a trap
No. It's not. A trap assumes that the developers deviously devised a choice meant to antagonize the player in a way that locks their progresses or whatever. That's not how that works. You usually can figure out if a build is a bust in first hour of playing (meaning if you create a talker and realize you can't pass relevant checks. Or you roll a fighter and discover you're struggling with easy enemies.); the game gives you immediate feedback about these things.

I somewhat disagree with this. My first build petered out at the beginning of the Habitat since I got rumbled in every combat encounter, and it was nearly 10 hours to get there, muddling through a lot of combat slowly. The "feedback" it gives you is only relevant once you know the game's systems. Like once you have a rifleman that is consistentlyu getting 95% accuracy, you'll know that's awesome, but if you're playing the first time and see a lot of 35%s, you might just assume that's the norm and be working to make slight adjustments to improve that (different firing modes to get +10 here, an implant for PER over there, etc... you got your 35% to 55% and you're still losing a ton without knowing why).

I'd even go a bit further because certain things appear to be very relevant early on... particularly grazes. 3x grazes is more damage than 1x hit early on, so you might grab the feat for grazes only to realize once you hit the first difficult encounter that your grazes are all doing zero.

Not that this is necessarily a bad thing; this game does take learning and patience and rewards you for it.

Anyways. Tangent aside. As to the question on hand. This character did all the relevant content without combat:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2808263746

If you're going to roll a character that doesn't engage in combat, then you stick to that archetype and don't engage in combat. Colony Ship is a role playing game first and foremost, meaning character builds aren't some aesthetic choice where it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Sure. There are things you're going to miss out on. Ah well. That's life. You can't have a character that's never shot a gun before and immediately expect him to be a proficient fighter. That doesn't make sense. That's like wanting your cake and eating it.

A lot of RPGs are all about letting the player choose a way through any situation. Colony Ship is more about creating a character and then the best path for a given situation is clear.

I think describing it as role-playing though can be misleading since you're quite railroaded there. Can I roleplay as a guy who kills frogs/mind worms/dangerous lifeforms, but never hurts a person? That's a REALLY difficult build. Can I roleplay as a lawman who will never steal? Yes, but I'm gimping myself by doing so. Heck, even just saying "I won't kill any innocents, but will use force on evildoers" is going to be a negative for your character -- a simple example is the squad leader implant; you're basically killing innocent scavengers to steal their implant. Being evil is going to get you much further than being good.

BTW, again, I'm not saying this is a bad thing. That's the game design. And real life design, too.

[Pink Eye]

>A lot of RPGs are all about letting the player choose a way through any situation. Colony Ship is more about creating a character and then the best path for a given situation is clear.

Well, list some games where builds are more than some aesthetic choices while also facilitating the player many options towards a situation. I'm curious about this claim.