Damage reduction, reaction attacks and grazes

[wizard1200]

The current damage reduction works only during the early game, because it makes reaction attacks and especially grazes nearly useless as soon as the player enters the mid game, which is the reason why it is important to change the armor mechanic in my opinion * ...

I would use a mechanic similar to Fallout / Atom RPG: every armor has a damage resistance and a heavy armor has also a damage reduction. The damage of an attack is reduced by the damage resistance and the remaining damage is reduced by the damage reduction. The current values could be converted by ...

- Current dr x 5 = damage resistance in % (damage is always rounded down)
- AP penalty of a heavy armor = damage reduction (choice is more interesting)
- Subdermal armor implant = damage reduction (implant is more powerful)
- Energy shield gadget = damage reduction (gadget is more powerful)
- Penetration of a weapon or a feat = reduces the damage resistance of an armor

Example 1:
- Hit with damage 10 - 14 and damage reduction 5: 5 - 9
- Hit with damage 10 - 14, damage resistance 25 and damage reduction 0: 7 - 10
- Graze with damage 10 - 14 and damage reduction 5: 0 - 2
- Graze with damage 10 - 14, damage resistance 25 and damage reduction 0: 3 - 5

Example 2:
- Hit with damage 10 - 14 and damage reduction 10: 0 - 4
- Hit with damage 10 - 14, damage resistance 50 and damage reduction 2: 3 - 5
- Graze with damage 10 - 14 and damage reduction 10: 0
- Graze with damage 10 - 14, damage resistance 50 and damage reduction 2: 0 - 1

Example 3:
- Hit with damage 12 - 16 and damage reduction 5: 7 - 11
- Hit with damage 12 - 16, damage resistance 25 and damage reduction 0: 9 - 12
- Graze with damage 12 - 16 and damage reduction 5: 1 - 3
- Graze with damage 12 - 16, damage resistance 25 and damage reduction 0: 4 - 6

Example 4:
- Hit with damage 12 - 16 and damage reduction 10: 2 - 6
- Hit with damage 12 - 16, damage resistance 50 and damage reduction 2: 4 - 6
- Graze with damage 12 - 16 and damage reduction 10: 0
- Graze with damage 12 - 16, damage resistance 50 and damage reduction 2: 1 - 2

* Disclaimer:
I have obviously no idea what i am suggesting, because i have not posted a character build during the last months, and the following points are just random suggestions which are hardly thought through ;)

[Tsubutai]

A mid-game party should be mainly using weapons with penetration bonuses or weapons whose minimum damage substantially exceeds the typical DR values of enemies, so you ought to factor that in. Reaction attacks feel like they're in an OK spot to me at the moment, if you accept that they're supposed to mainly contribute chip damage. Grazes are in a pretty bad spot against heavily armored enemies, but I'm not sure that's the worst thing either. I do think that any hit or graze should do a minimum of 1 damage, though; it's kind of absurd when there are sometimes situations where you can do 0 damage but apply a critical effect.

[Vince]

Originally posted by Tsubutai:

...it's kind of absurd when there are sometimes situations where you can do 0 damage but apply a critical effect.

Not really.

A bulletproof vest can stop a bullet but doesn't always prevent cracked ribs and internal bleeding. Concussions (helmets) are fairly common too.

[Tsubutai]

Well, I'd say that cracking someone's rib, causing them to bleed internally, or inflicting a concussion would all be considered pretty damaging.

[Vince]

Which corresponds to both the text descriptions and effects.

[skaudus]

A SMG crit gives you -20 aim regardless of damage. That hurts quite a bit, and makes their users a threat regardless of their killing power. Going from 65 hit chance to 45 is a big drop in damage output.

[wizard1200]

Originally posted by Tsubutai:

A mid-game party should be mainly using weapons with penetration bonuses or weapons whose minimum damage substantially exceeds the typical DR values of enemies, so you ought to factor that in. Reaction attacks feel like they're in an OK spot to me at the moment, if you accept that they're supposed to mainly contribute chip damage. Grazes are in a pretty bad spot against heavily armored enemies, but I'm not sure that's the worst thing either.

Getting a higher penetration than 20 % (10 % weapon + 10 % sharpshooter) with reaction attacks is currently not possible in my opinion. This means that the weapon inflicts about 2 points of additional damage per attack, which is lower than the damage of an early game weapon, which is especially an issue, because you have invested a feat:
- Hit with damage 10 - 14 and damage reduction 5: 5 - 9
- Hit with damage 12 - 16, damage reduction 10 and penetration 20: 4 - 8

Grazes are useful during the early game, but are suddenly completely pointless during the mid game. This is an issue in my opinion, because the game has several weapons and especially feats, which are relevant for grazes and turn into traps as soon as you reach the mid game.

[Pink Eye]

What weapons are we talking about. Your opening post is very vague.

[wizard1200]

Originally posted by Pink Eye:

What weapons are we talking about. Your opening post is very vague.

Grazes of melee weapons (without Juggernaut) and ranged weapons. Reaction attacks of blades (without Juggernaut), pistols and smgs (which is 'funny', because they -should- be the strength of blades and pistols). I excluded Juggernaut, because grazes and reaction attacks should be useful without str 10 and a heroic feat in my opinion.

[Tsubutai]

Originally posted by Vince:

Which corresponds to both the text descriptions and effects.

Text descriptions, sure, but effects? I disagree. Game combat systems usually have a pretty clear distinction between damage and crowd control/debuffs; the former makes the enemy's HP bar go down, the latter reduces their ability to make your HP bar go down. Mechanically, no HP reduction = no damage, and mechanics trump text.

Originally posted by wizard1200:

Getting a higher penetration than 20 % (10 % weapon + 10 % sharpshooter) with reaction attacks is currently not possible in my opinion. This means that the weapon inflicts about 2 points of additional damage per attack, which is lower than the damage of an early game weapon, which is especially an issue, because you have invested a feat:
- Hit with damage 10 - 14 and damage reduction 5: 5 - 9
- Hit with damage 12 - 16, damage reduction 10 and penetration 20: 4 - 8

You can get 30% penetration with ranged weapons - both the Longslide EX and Long Arm of the Law have 20% penetration bonuses, plus the 10 from Sharpshooter. An Assassin Faythe can even take it up to 40%. Even ignoring that, I don't think a difference of 1 damage is enough to get worked up about since the balance between DR and damage/penetration is likely to bounce around by small amounts like that as better gear and weapons become available; it'll shift in favor of weapons as 20% penetration bonuses become more widely available, then in favor of DR as "old" armor is replaced with pristine, and so on.

Grazes are kind of hampered by the fact that the enemies they should be most effective against - lightly armored with high evasion - basically don't exist in any of the current midgame fights. On top of that, the graze feats lack scaling because they give a flat damage bonus; it might be better if the +2 damage bonus was changed to "grazes do 75% of normal damage rather than 50%".

[wizard1200]

Originally posted by Tsubutai:

You can get 30% penetration with ranged weapons - both the Longslide EX and Long Arm of the Law have 20% penetration bonuses, plus the 10 from Sharpshooter. An Assassin Faythe can even take it up to 40%. Even ignoring that, I don't think a difference of 1 damage is enough to get worked up about since the balance between DR and damage/penetration is likely to bounce around by small amounts like that as better gear and weapons become available; it'll shift in favor of weapons as 20% penetration bonuses become more widely available, then in favor of DR as "old" armor is replaced with pristine, and so on.

Grazes are kind of hampered by the fact that the enemies they should be most effective against - lightly armored with high evasion - basically don't exist in any of the current midgame fights. On top of that, the graze feats lack scaling because they give a flat damage bonus; it might be better if the +2 damage bonus was changed to "grazes do 75% of normal damage rather than 50%".

Good points, but i think that these are only bandaids (giving new weapons more penetration defeats the point of getting better armors / the difference between a hit with 100 % damage and a graze with 75 % damage would be low), because the core issue is that the increasing damage reduction of an armor is more effective against grazes (+ 100 %, because they inflict 50 % damage) and less effective against critical hits (amount depends on the critical multiplier), which means that the former can be ignored and the latter can be deadly as the game progresses. The combination of a damage resistance and a damage reduction would be -always- useful against grazes, hits and critical hits.

[Tsubutai]

I don't think that having to continuously upgrade your gear and weapons to match the capabilities of increasingly tough enemies is a band-aid so much as, well, a central element of most RPGs and combat-oriented games in general. How is replacing an early weapon with one having more damage and penetration any different to replacing crappy bronze gear with fully charged power armour and a skymetal weapon in AoD?

[Pink Eye]

Alright. I went ahead and did a run based around reaction mechanic to see if it does fall as hard as Wizard lets on. These are damage numbers at encounters in Factory + Shuttlebay + Habitat:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2814197961
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2814198107
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2814198545
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2814198658

Damage remained pretty consistent throughout. Only difference is that I wasn't doing 10+ damage compared to early game content once I reached Factory, which is to be expected since most early game encounters don't have any armor. Didn't have any issues with grazes either.

[wizard1200]

Originally posted by Tsubutai:

How is replacing an early weapon with one having more damage and penetration any different to replacing crappy bronze gear with fully charged power armour and a skymetal weapon in AoD?

I think that the difference is the speed at which these replacement take place (pipe weapons last about 10 minutes).

Originally posted by Pink Eye:

Damage remained pretty consistent throughout. Only difference is that I wasn't doing 10+ damage compared to early game content once I reached Factory, which is to be expected since most early game encounters don't have any armor. Didn't have any issues with grazes either.

Did your character had str 10 and Juggernaut? I ask, because grazes and reaction attacks should be useful without str 10 and a heroic feat in my opinion. The decline of the damage as soon as you reached the Factory hits reaction attacks and especially grazes much harder, which makes the investement in the corresponding feats less useful compared to other feats.

[skaudus]

He posted the character on (I dare not even say the name out loud) the builds thread. STR 9, no Juggernaut.

[wizard1200]

Originally posted by skaudus:

He posted the character on (I dare not even say the name out loud) the builds thread. STR 9, no Juggernaut.

Oh, i did not notice that.