Sneak mechanics explained

[skaudus]

I saw that Vince replied to a review with a rather in-depth description of how the stealth mechanic works, so I'll repost it here. Perhaps Vince could post it himself on the main board or sticky it, since it's really useful (I didn't even realise that there was a distinction between green and yellow tiles!)

"
1) Tiles - when you enter the stealth mode, all tiles around guards are automatically assigned detection values. If your sneaking ability (the skill and modifiers) is greater than the detection value, you remain undetected. Thus, green tiles are safe to walk on, red tiles means instant detection and combat, yellow means higher chance of detection (if you end your turn there, you'll be instantly detected at the beginning of the guard's turn).

The detection values are determined by the distance from the guards, which way they're facing, their Perception, and thermal vision gear, if any. High sneaking ability turns more tiles green and opens up more options.

2) Noise - each step and action (lockpicking, climbing, using computers, killing guards in stealth mode, etc) generates noise. Not a whole lot of noise to instantly alert the guards the moment you do something but enough to add up over time and raise the guards' suspicions. The higher the guards' Perception, the faster the alert bar is filled:

0-24: Unaware
25-49: Suspicious (a warning to the player)
50-74: Alerted
75-100: Searching

When a guard is alerted, he turns around towards the last noise generated, so if you are close he'll see you (meaning a lot of green tiles will instantly turn red). When a guard decides that it's time to investigate, he moves towards the last noise generated on his turn. If the meter reaches 100, he "interrupts" your turn and turns around immediately.

Each state past Unaware raises the difficulty of killing in stealth mode. Once alerted a guard will not relax after a few min the way it usually works in other RPGs with stealth.

3) The higher your sneaking ability (skill, feats, gear) the longer you can stay undetected and the more you can do. To put it simply, if your quest goal is to steal an item from a chest nearby but there's another chest in a room down the hall, it will be relatively easy to get to the 'quest chest' but much harder to get to the optional chest (without starting a fight you may or may not be able to win). So specialization will definitely pay off.

You can reduce the noise you generate (Sneaking and feats like Ghost: -1 noise per tile, actions generate half the noise). Heavy boots and armor will increase the noise, so dress light but not get caught in your underwear.
"

[razvedchiki]

you can use a companion to stealth around?

[wizard1200]

Originally posted by razvedchiki:

you can use a companion to stealth around?

Yes, you can select the character who should use stealth.

[razvedchiki]

so you can ingore stealth completely and recruit an npc? or is it required for all the party to be somewhat trained in stealth?

[Set_iscariote]

Originally posted by razvedchiki:

so you can ingore stealth completely and recruit an npc? or is it required for all the party to be somewhat trained in stealth?

You should only need one stealth especialist to do the job in the party. But take care if they fail the infiltration they can end in a very dificult figth with it allies far way. Unless your character is very weak in combat (a cult leader) I recomend him to be the one who infiltrates.

[stretch]

The reason I fail stealth most often is the way as stated above the enemies move towards the last tile they heard noise when they have detected you. This makes it exceptionally hard to split enemies effectively in some of the tiny scenarios rooms. You cannot make a noise somewhere and move to the other side of a stack of shelves or crates to hide because they come the shortest route to your location which is probably around the wrong side of the stack making it impossible to stay hidden.
I gave up for now trying to stealth solo one scenario because they could NOT be split solo AND taken down. I could split them just fine but the lack of room is severely limiting once they are split. Sure there are many other ways of tackling the scenario so it's not like it is unbeatable. Just not soloable with stealth yet. Maybe if I had the invis cloaking gadget on my lone wolf run but certainly not at the point I am at just now with what I have. Come back later for that one I guess. I will get it solo somehow.
That said..... What I really want are pebbles I can throw to attract guards attention so I can lure them around obstacles and sneak up for a takedown.
Mercy was really good because it's a big and complex area and it has thing t]like the drainpipe you can go down to loop around behind them. It's a super cool stealth scenario.

Anyway. I doubt the little ones cannot actually be done purely in stealth but it's going to need to be right at the end of CH1 when my stealth skills are maxxed for that chapter.

[Elhoim]

Originally posted by stretch:

The reason I fail stealth most often is the way as stated above the enemies move towards the last tile they heard noise when they have detected you. This makes it exceptionally hard to split enemies effectively in some of the tiny scenarios rooms. You cannot make a noise somewhere and move to the other side of a stack of shelves or crates to hide because they come the shortest route to your location which is probably around the wrong side of the stack making it impossible to stay hidden.

Yeah, I'm thinking about making the system a bit more nuanced in terms of the "strength" of the noise, so that they don't move exactly.

Originally posted by stretch:

Mercy was really good because it's a big and complex area and it has thing t]like the drainpipe you can go down to loop around behind them. It's a super cool stealth scenario.

Thanks! In the factory we are planning something like this one but even bigger, similar to Teron's palace.

Originally posted by stretch:

Anyway. I doubt the little ones cannot actually be done purely in stealth but it's going to need to be right at the end of CH1 when my stealth skills are maxxed for that chapter.

Yeah, the ones like the Outskirts Gang and Samuel are more like "ambushes" scenarios, in which you move in, kill a couple of guys and kill the rest in combat. Unless you get the cloak gadget.

We designed scenarios in 3 ways:

- Get in/Get out: These ones are rescuing the deacon, killing Mercy, getting the cores. You get some sneak points when you complete the goal, and the rest when you get out unnoticed.

- Sneak past: These are the ones like the frogs or scavs in the armory. You need to sneak past some enemies undetected. Sometimes with one party member is enough, sometimes it has to be the whole party. Sneak is granted on leaving.

- Ambush: Like the gang or Samuel, the idea is getting in, killing a few guys in stealth, position your party, and attack. Killing all is extremely difficult, but can be done with high skill, feats and gadgets.

Now, I understand that the distinction can be hard to see in the last case, so it feels like you are failing them all the time, so I'll think of some way to convey that better.

[stretch]

Originally posted by Elhoim:

Now, I understand that the distinction can be hard to see in the last case, so it feels like you are failing them all the time, so I'll think of some way to convey that better.

That might be the case for some people but I pretty much understood that it must be deliberate.
There are ways to do it. I could take in a second person and have them in a spot ready to takedown the guy I cannot get alone. There are many options but I really want to get it solo somehow.
A noisemaker device or pebbles would add an extra layer of tactics to stealth I think. That or make it too easy. Not sure to be honest.

[Elhoim]

Originally posted by stretch:

A noisemaker device or pebbles would add an extra layer of tactics to stealth I think. That or make it too easy. Not sure to be honest.

Yeah, it could make it too easy or formulaic (get close, throw pebble, move in and kill, repeat). We played around with the concept of some environment interaction with noise, but it makes it a bit too puzzle like (why can I hit this to make noise here but not somewhere else?).

In any case, we will still refine the system further. This is our first public pass, and the first time we ever implement a system like this, so all the feedback is extremely helpful. That's a bit the point of the Early Access.

[Bishi]

You should include that critical strike increases your takedown ability. I gave Faythe critical thinker to help get her critical strike up, as well as tagged it. And once you get to 3 you can assassinate targets much easier, sometimes even more than one before the fight starts.

[Giacomavelli]

Re: the Prowler feat, what exactly does this mean "Yellow tiles range increased to 30 (from 15)"? If it's talking about the detection value of the tile (see below) then higher is WORSE for the player, no?

1) Tiles - when you enter the stealth mode, all tiles around guards are automatically assigned detection values. If your sneaking ability (the skill and modifiers) is greater than the detection value, you remain undetected. Thus, green tiles are safe to walk on, red tiles means instant detection and combat, yellow means higher chance of detection (if you end your turn there, you'll be instantly detected at the beginning of the guard's turn).

[LDiCesare]

I like the fact you can draw enemies away by making some noise.
I think of actually having one stealthy guy and giving the +1noise perk to my companion so he kind of "whistles" the enemy where he is while my PC moves behind to assassinate.

The only problem I find with this is it takes a lot of time to lure an enemy out. I've repeatedly and patiently moved in and out of green/yellow tiles till I managed to get the enemy to move. Having a 'make noise' option to fill the enemy's bar would be helpful.
Just make it an option costing X AP, that generates "a lot of" noise in the tile next to you. Enough to bring the nearest enemy to the next perception level?

Another small issue is that when said guy eventually landed on a tile where I had assassinated his pal, he didn't sound the alarm. I can buy it by pretending I actually moved the corpse, but that should have generated some noise too.

[mm.324]

" Once alerted a guard will not relax after a few min the way it usually works in other RPGs with stealth."
Why wouldn't they relax after a while? No one stays on high-alert indefinitely. After a while without further noise most people would dismiss a random noise as just that, a random noise.

Also, if I understand everything I've read in the forum, stealth is "contextual"? Which means we can't try sneaking where ever we want? Why would you implement that kind of system in an RPG? It takes away player agency.

[Vince]

Originally posted by mm.324:

" Once alerted a guard will not relax after a few min the way it usually works in other RPGs with stealth."
Why wouldn't they relax after a while? No one stays on high-alert indefinitely. After a while without further noise most people would dismiss a random noise as just that, a random noise.

You generate noise (some kind of disturbance) with every step. At first it seems like nothing but the longer you stay there, the more alerted the guards become. A good infiltrator can stay there longer and leave before the guards get fully alerted.

Also, if I understand everything I've read in the forum, stealth is "contextual"? Which means we can't try sneaking where ever we want? Why would you implement that kind of system in an RPG? It takes away player agency.

I see the player's agency in meaningful choices that alter the story not in being able to start combat or stealth whenever they please. In other words, yes, stealth is a quest solution where appropriate, but not every quest can be solved by sneaking.

[wizard1200]

Originally posted by stretch:

The reason I fail stealth most often is the way as stated above the enemies move towards the last tile they heard noise when they have detected you. This makes it exceptionally hard to split enemies effectively in some of the tiny scenarios rooms. You cannot make a noise somewhere and move to the other side of a stack of shelves or crates to hide because they come the shortest route to your location which is probably around the wrong side of the stack making it impossible to stay hidden.

Yeah, it is strange that some objects block their line of sight, but others don't.

Originally posted by mm.324:

Why wouldn't they relax after a while? No one stays on high-alert indefinitely. After a while without further noise most people would dismiss a random noise as just that, a random noise.

I think that this is a slippery slope, because it could result in situations like (sadly) many stealth games where you kill a guard, move away, wait and after some everything is ok.

Originally posted by Elhoim:

Yeah, it could make it too easy or formulaic (get close, throw pebble, move in and kill, repeat). We played around with the concept of some environment interaction with noise, but it makes it a bit too puzzle like (why can I hit this to make noise here but not somewhere else?).

Invisible Inc. solved this issue by increasing the basic alert level every turn: You could fool the guards, but if it required too much time you got a much bigger problem ...

[mm.324]

Originally posted by Vince:

Originally posted by mm.324:

" Once alerted a guard will not relax after a few min the way it usually works in other RPGs with stealth."
Why wouldn't they relax after a while? No one stays on high-alert indefinitely. After a while without further noise most people would dismiss a random noise as just that, a random noise.

You generate noise (some kind of disturbance) with every step. At first it seems like nothing but the longer you stay there, the more alerted the guards become. A good infiltrator can stay there longer and leave before the guards get fully alerted.

I'm not making a noise/disturbance if I'm standing still. So if I move a few spaces then not move for a certain amount of time then the guards's alert level should go down. Otherwise, by the way I understand it right now, I could stand still for hours and the guard would stay at the heightened alert level.
Also a good infiltrator has the patience to wait for the enemy to let down their guard, ask any military sniper.

Originally posted by wizard1200:

Originally posted by mm.324:

Why wouldn't they relax after a while? No one stays on high-alert indefinitely. After a while without further noise most people would dismiss a random noise as just that, a random noise.

I think that this is a slippery slope, because it could result in situations like (sadly) many stealth games where you kill a guard, move away, wait and after some everything is ok.

Well obviously in a situation where a dead body is found then the guards would stay at high-alert.