Erika the detective? Spoiler about the real culprit.

[Eisenerz]

I get it that the mastermind has different personas to trick the survivors in EP 1-4. Actually, Erika (as a persona) would fit in the scheme for EP 5-6 but apperently, after searching for Umineko discussions, she is treated as an different human. Why?

EDIT:
For user Battler Ushiromiya

What is Erikatrice?

>Erikatrice is my fan theory where we have 2 different Erika the same tale. There is the real human Furudo Erika- the one who fell from the pleasure boat and died in the ocean/on shore. I'll name her Human!Erika in the texts.
>The piece version of Erika we see in EP 5 and 6 is Sayo Yasuda. In other words the culprit uses Erika's name for creating a new persona, matching with a different appeareance and acting as someone else to pretend she is a stranger washed up on Rokkenjima. While she may behave like a detective, this role is actually hold by the drowned Human!Erika. I will shorten her name into Piece!Erika.
>Meta-Erika is a creation(!) and servant of Bernkastel. In this theory, she is an artifically avatar which does not mean she is like her human form and she believes her piece is human!Erika. She follows and see through piece!Erika's eyes. (that's the whole point) She'll be refered as meta!Erika.
>This theory just show an alternative thinking. I repeat, it's not something I want to add to the canon just like user Battler Ushiromya thinks again and again. Anyway, this way, it could answer some plotholes in Ep5 and 6 and also shows an other solution. The interpretation of some scene is also different, so your opinions might differ. Overall, both sides mistake Erika for a stranger . It's like Beatrice stepped down from the game master position in EP5 where she cannot know the truth of the game, meta!Erika might not know the truth of herself.
>If I mention the mastermind I use the human name, Sayo (think of Yasu if Sayo is just Shannon for you).

Number of people and humans in the official English release

>No matter which Erika is meant, she does not influence the Answer Arcs.
>I won't use the fan translation or the manga version here. But I can show one red truth that implies people=persona/personalities:
From EP4(Teaparty):"Kanon is dead. Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die. In short, he was the 9th victim."
>Piece!Erika only add one person to the total number of people on the island.
>The red statement at the end of EP6:
Erika:"Hi, pleased to meet you! I am Furudo Erika, the detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please, welcome me!!
I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!"
Battler+Beatrice:"Even if you do join u""-""That makes 17 humans.""(Note:in Japanese it is read as "17 people". Whatever.)
In my theory, meta!Erika confuses people=bodies with people=humans. I note that she refers this red truth as her self-indrotuction:
"......Now,...at the end,...I'd like to finally indrotuce myself..."
plus
"This is detective Furudo Erika's final parting line...and self-introduction!!"
Human!Erika might use the red as a quote for e.g. indroducting herself to the cousins when she does not know that Kinzo is dead and Shannon is also Kanon.
Because Kinzo is not counted to the total number of humans on the island, human!Erika legitimately adds one to human count in Ep5 and 6, making it 17 humans instead of the true number: 16.

Hints why there are 2 Erikas

>Genji lied about contacting the police and the Furudo family. Otherwise the tale becomes a broken circle where it is known in Prime that Erika was indeed on Rokkenjima. In the future she is only missing on the 4th October. It is possible for the mastermind to heard the coast guard's broadcast about a missing girl named Furudo Erika.
>Erika's birthday is 4th October.
>"Knox's 1st. It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story! A person first introduced in the 5th game cannot be named as the CULPRIT...!!" Even if a character is changed into a culprit, it's strange to use a 'detective' as a culprit in the next game.
>How Bernkastel puts her pieces on the gameboard is described in EP7 when Will asked if Lion was her piece. It's possible that the kakera where the mastermind does not follow the usual rules of Beatrice's board (like how the game masters Lambda and Battler were setting up the gameboards: a prank against a stranger) just gave birth to Erika to this world.
>North Wind and Sun: Like in EP3 when EVA became the antagonist EP 5 and 6 allows Erika to be the villian to give the impression that Beatrice is not bad. Also in these 3 games Beatrice stepped down to play an other role and is against the new the villian.
>Erika vs Beatrice in EP5 and Ep6, hinting a duality like Shannon/Kanon.
>Erika can see Sakutaro and is affected by the diplomatic immunity.
>When searching for the rose Maria should be very focused on that task. How could Erika changed her mind?
>How could Erika have knows that the puzzle mechanism
>the word "everyone" in EP6 should include Erika who was in the hallway at the time
>Erika and Kanon were not be seen together until EP6's showdown
>it was shown that just Battler and Kanon are different people

Argueing about the detective status and moves in EP5

>Please look at "What is Erikatrice" to differentiate piece!Erika, human!Erika and meta!Erika. Piece!Erika isn't the detective but human!Erika is. User Battler Ushiromya considered it as a unfair move, however, the games doesn't need a detective, the detective hints in the canon are neglecteable and Erika followed red herrings.
>It is already shown that the human player doesn't necessarily need a detective piece as the witch side can contribute all hints with red.
>Double name trick: The detective proclamation actually unknowingly targeted human!Erika. Piece!Erika can still be the culprit.
>The exception clause (the culprit may disguise as the detective) in Knox's 7th is mentioned by Lambda
>Piece!Erika has no real backup for her identity. It couldn't be objectively con us it is not confirmed.
>"Because I'm the detective." is said by Bernkastel, not by piece!Erika.
>The scenes where the detective's authority is enforced is magic (which is forbidden by Knox's 2nd), I consider them as illusions whose could be made by the game master. This is seen in the morning after

the 1st Twilight happened when Battler blocks the entry to the cousins room.
>I consider Erika's speech to Bernkastel during breakfast as magic and shows that she is not objective (Knox's 2nd).
>Her introduction and parting line in EP6 refers to the connection of the innocent human!Erika and meta!Erika as piece!Erika is the culprit in the game.
>In the canon Erika (and Bernkastel in the meta world) predicted that the murders happens around Battler (he too) in the guesthouse. However she waited in the lobby to corner Natsuhi by lying (in the court) she slipped through her observation which is denied in red. I consider this as a forbidden move (Knox's 6th+7th).
Erika instructed Eva to seal someone in the mansion. Erika went immediately left guesthouse to check all the seals isn't a good move. She made a closed room. The only time a culprit could snuck in was the time she sealed the guest house or before.
>Erika could see Shannon and Kanon together.

Solving the logic error with Erikatrice

>Since it's a logic battle, I use everything. It's a wordplay trick about 'going in', 'going out', 'leaving' and 'enter'. Check these lines out:
- "...First, this room is a closed room created from the inside. The seals on the windows are intact, so there can be no escape through there. Of course, there is no way to escape by leaving through the bathroom. ...I'll make it simple. There is no exit to escape from except for this door. However, the chain lock on this door is set. You can unset and reset it all you want, but you can only do so from the inside. Furthermore, you are free to go out through the door, but you cannot leave or escape while the chain lock is unset. You have to show that you can escape from this room with the chain lock still connected...!!"
- "From the time you entered the room to the time of the logic error, you, Battler, and Kanon were the only ones who went in or out of the guest room."
- "I acknowledge it. It refers to three people: you, Battler, and Kanon."
- "Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people."
- "Repeat it. 'Going in or out refers to when someone crosses the boundary between the guest room and the area outside it.'" "I acknowledge it."

'Going in our out' means the person doesn't need to reset the chain lock, while 'entering' and most importantly 'escaping' or 'leaving' depends on if the chain lock was set. That's why Erika asked Battler if the chain lock was set after his existence in the guestroom was denied.

>Solution does need a dead human, since a corpse does not count as a person but to the bodies count.
>For the user Battler Ushiromiya: The solution also solves the'everyone else' problem: Erika does NOT exclude herself from this word, she only thought and talked about Kinzo. Because Battler is asked to

state of ALL pieces' location, Erika should have landed in the cousins room, which is the problem.
>Step by step solving:
-because piece!Erika is Sayo, there is no problem with escaping and sealing the survivors in the guest house, Shannon and Kanon in both rooms are just an illusion
-Sayo kills 5 victims and takes a corpse near the guest room
-Sayo (as Erika) breaks the seals, enters, repairs and sets the chain lock
-Culprit-san goes in the bathroom
-Battler unset the chain lock and hides again in the closet OR he goes outside (remember he hasn't 'left' yet)
-Sayo (as Kanon) goes out, gets the corpse, comes back and 'rescues' Battler (Battler has 'left' at this point if he's outside)
>I think the whole word play is possible Erika thought too hard about this ^^'.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Did you read the Tumblr post, pray tell?

[Eisenerz]

Sorry I didn't finished yesterday because I was tired. It doesn't seem that Ramble read my text (I made a crappy edit in the first post hope you noticed this). But if you feel wanting confirmation, I'll ask her.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Ramblings didn't do yours specifically, but it's a close enough question

[Eisenerz]

I did an edit. I meant 'read' or 'did a analyse'.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

I never said I wanted him to really "disprove" it. I asked you to read what he said on the topic in what I linked, since it's more or less what you proposed.

[Eisenerz]

Ramble didn't even read the thread and replied with a honest thought on that question. Ramble thinks the red truth refers to three (different) people thus Erika and Kanon couldn't be the same person because being the same person=counts as 1. However I disagree with that definition. I already showed that with the red truth "Kanon in Kyrie's group" from EP4. If we say 'both are the same person' I don't think it's literally and mathically (A=B), it just means to me they are the same human, since Umineko made a line between person and human.

I described why Sayo could got know about Erika in the forgeries. I think Ramble overlook the fact that forgeries written by Tohya have the knowledge what happened after the accident (like Eva's survival in prime is described in EP3). Sayo's forgeries are her imaginations how her plans could happen and hoping someone will stop her.

>"So it’s pretty unlikely she could use Erika to represent herself even if they share some similar points."
Well I think the fan theory as an alternative universe like Sayo's alternative form, Lion. Since we have no idea how these characters would act in prime, their existence only exists on the gameboard. I just speculate that Sayo could have changed her plan on one of these gameboard and she have the ability and will to do that. It is your and other readers' conclusion that Tohya think there might be a complete stranger on the island. However you neglect that Tohya must've filled Gameboard!Erika's character out by himself - Battler's memories does not include Erika. The only reference in prime is Furudo Erika's family (who just suspected she could've stranded on Rokkenjima alive) and her ex-boyfriend (who could not have forgiven her and still talking ill of Erika). I also suspect after EP5 Tohya realized about Beatrice's true nature and wanted to present her in a positive light while Erika became the scapegoat- maybe it's similar to the often refered story "The north wind and the sun". It is right to use a dead person in a forgery without any permission of the family and thus allow to damage their and the dead person's reputation?
Tohya is exaggerating with his artistic freedom and obsession with Beatrice to fuel Witch Hunt and the publicity-which only hurt Ange. I still think Tohya unintentionally wrote the forgeries with a specific suspicious person in mind while the mastermind (Sayo) still acts from the background. Since EP5 and 6 ends before the end of the second day, everything can happen. Is this coincidence that both ended that way?
If we look what traits are common between Piece!Erika and Sayo I give these important ones from my view:
- both have interest in detective stories and mysteries
- it is implied they are biological male (for Erika it's Battler's wedding ring scene), their appearance is female
- both are tsundere
- Battler-san is their love interest
- treats the inhabitants of Rokkenjima like pieces
- of course, witches

[Battler Ushiromiya]

He doesn't need to read this thread. The reason I gave the link was because he was asked a similar question.Erika being the detective still doesn't make sense. It is never once implied that "Erika is a biological male". The wedding ring scene is just innuendo, nothing more. It's not meant to be taken literally. Erika is not a tsundere, she's a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ psychopath. Battler is not Erika's love interest, she HAS no love interest. The theory is still flimsy at best and nonsensical at worst.

[Eisenerz]

Dunno what do you still want from me. If it doesn't makes sense to you, I'm ok with it. But your provided constructive feedback is very minimal to not existent because you still think your opinion here surpasses an alternative interpretation.

I just provided my answer to Ramble's answer. No need to read for Ramble but for you. If you need confirmation from others, it is your thing.

I don't know why an innuendo cannot be taken as a hint. It backfires to you because Umineko is full of metaphers whose describe characteristics of people and their relationships or concepts. And once again you think only your opinion counts in a discussion.

You describe Erika as a psychopath. But what about Beatrice/Sayo? A psychpath cannot be tsundere or vice versa? You skipped everything else just to deny my statement with a weak argument. Strange enough you say she HAS no love interest but you had forgotten about Dlanor.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

It's still not any sort of hint, though, it's JUST innuendo. The stuff with Yasu's personalities are hints because they're on the board, and thus never actually happen outside of Yasu's thoughts so it's basically her talking to herself. Erika's is in the meta, which have far less stuff like that.

Yasu isn't a psychopath. She doesn't murder everyone for pleasure, she does it because she's been downright broken by the world and just wants to end it all, and she WANTS to be stopped. "Rule Z- Please, somebody stop me". `Erika, on the other hand, is a pure psychopath. She actually derives pleasure in the pain and suffering of others. And Dlanor is not her love interest. There was that conversation in Erika's room, but that was just Dlanor playing the role of Erika's boyfriend more than anything

[Eisenerz]

Battler Ushiromiya の投稿を引用：

It's still not any sort of hint, though, it's JUST innuendo. The stuff with Yasu's personalities are hints because they're on the board, and thus never actually happen outside of Yasu's thoughts so it's basically her talking to herself. Erika's is in the meta, which have far less stuff like that.

Yasu isn't a psychopath. She doesn't murder everyone for pleasure, she does it because she's been downright broken by the world and just wants to end it all, and she WANTS to be stopped. "Rule Z- Please, somebody stop me". `Erika, on the other hand, is a pure psychopath. She actually derives pleasure in the pain and suffering of others. And Dlanor is not her love interest. There was that conversation in Erika's room, but that was just Dlanor playing the role of Erika's boyfriend more than anything

Ok Mr. psychologist. I take these innuendo as hints. I take the whole meta as Battler's broken mind (except Ange's). They belong to the story.
Since we don't share the same opinion of Sayo we cannot agree on this point. I still think Sayo is mentally ill and thus she has psychopathic tedencies. And even if she wants to be stopped, some real murderers wants to be stopped, too. In the manga, she searched for excuses to kill the people. Even if Sayo is a pitiful broken character (by the world you said), the circumstances doesn't make her innocent, even if she may be the worst treated victim. Since she believes that her shinju('double suicide') makes her (and the the family) happy doesn't mean it is true (this is explored in EP4 where Ange brought Sakutaro to Maria in the Golden Land). She is delusional about herself and believes murder and suicide solve her problems. Killing for pleasure is not a necessary trait for a psychopath.
If we take a look how Sayo treated Natsuhi in End it doesn't go along the red truth. Unless she played it on the phone to make her enslave I could say in my theory that Erika is just a nasty person to MAKE the family prank on her. I descibed in my theory why Sayo is benefiting from an annoying detective and an annoyed Jessica and Krauss (funny enough the manga shows her being displeased by Battler). Natsuhi should be alone when she is exposed as a murderer, that's why Jessica and Krauss has to be removed early.
Dlanor<3Erika is just a symbol Erika's love of mysteries. Why do you think love is just a deep affection between two humans?

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Nver said she was innocent, I just said she wasn't a psychopath, because she isn't.

Ep 5 is specifically a loveless game where Yasu does things she never would otherwise, courtesy of Lambda as the GM. That is the entire point.

[Eisenerz]

I explained why she has traits of a psychopath. I can support it further. Again, you didn't make an argument - "because she isn't" isn't an argument.

Actually I support my theory with Sayo's acting on the phone. It's the manga's (and partly the wiki's) fault fans think that Battler is the direct accomplice of Sayo. Of course they think Erika's explanation of Ep5 is mandatory just because it's the manga aaaand never consider something else. Absolutely no rules of Sayo were broken in EP5. Like you said, Sayo did it different and the gameboard just has a different layout but the purpose can be the same. Sayo is actually asking Natsuhi to expose her true self. It's the same concept as with "Beatrice being the Ushiromiya's alchemist", but with a child (since Sayo plan may include that Natsuhi appears to be Kinzo's mistress Beatrice). Even if the game is stopping here we can conclude that questions will rise. From this point one would ask first Kumasawa about the servant+baby - even if she lie about it Genji - who is believed to be alive- would be asked. Also, Krauss and Rosa may be asked about it. Yes, even the adults (and Battler) can make connections. The outcome of Natsuhi's confession doesn't even matter-and now it's obviously a hint from the culprit. I doubt Sayo directly appeared in front of all adults so it would be like in the first 4 games- a race against time until the accomplices fell into Sayo's trap. Since cornering Natsuhi isn't necessary anymore I bet Sayo will doing the killings like normal and changing to the previous goals.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

But she outright isn't. Might wanna look up a definition of a psychopath, because Yasu does not fit the bill.

Battler was the one over the phone. You know who the voice actor of the Man From 19 Years Ago is? Daisuke Ono, Battler's VA. And Ryukishi also had a hand in choosing the VAs, so it wasn't the company being lazy or not wanting to pay a new VA. It was a deliberate choice on Ryukishi's part to have Battler's VA voice the Man. Yasu explicitely made everyone but Krauss, Natsuhi, and Erika an accomplice in 5. And Yasu would have already gotten her goal there in the loveless game. Regardless, don't act like the plan in Episode 5 is Yasu's "true" characterization, because that is simply untrue.

[Eisenerz]

Battler Ushiromiya の投稿を引用：

But she outright isn't. Might wanna look up a definition of a psychopath, because Yasu does not fit the bill.

I repeat it again: That is not how an argument works. Maybe you should add some evidence to your sentences. It's a fan theory and canon material does not back you up. And don't throw words like psychopath into the discussion without knowing the full meaning and definition of it.

Battler was the one over the phone. You know who the voice actor of the Man From 19 Years Ago is? Daisuke Ono, Battler's VA. And Ryukishi also had a hand in choosing the VAs, so it wasn't the company being lazy or not wanting to pay a new VA. It was a deliberate choice on Ryukishi's part to have Battler's VA voice the Man. Yasu explicitely made everyone but Krauss, Natsuhi, and Erika an accomplice in 5. And Yasu would have already gotten her goal there in the loveless game. Regardless, don't act like the plan in Episode 5 is Yasu's "true" characterization, because that is simply untrue.

Dunno why you brought the topic about the voice actor here because it's not important. What I was trying to say in my previous post is that Erika's solution in the EP8 manga isn't mandatory. It's because I'm talking over and over about a fan theory - which doesn't need to be consent with canon material - a thing you still ignore. I was explaining why it does not really matter that EP5 is a loveless game because Sayo's main goal stays intact imo.
However, how can you be sure that Erika's reasoning is right about Sayo made everyone but some people into accomplices. As far as I can tell there wasn't any objective viewpoints in the dining room. Ah don't come with with the manga. It's just the best fitting reasoning she have unless she had a lucky guess. No matter what, the setup of Natsuhi's framing just leads to suspecting the mastermind after someone will look after the "dead". The obvious betrayal will shift the attention to "stop the culprit" - it's not new. Murder will also stop if you catch the culprit. Rule X+Y+Z never include rules like "giving Maria the letter, letter says solving the riddle=stop the murder (how Sayo intend to give the interest back anyway?). Confession of the Golden Witch is just vague about that -Sayo just played with ideas and since giving Maria is indeed a good idea it is maybe coincidence that EP1-4 has "Maria's Rose scenario" but it doesn't mean she hadn't other ideas to bring bring attention to the epitaph. You know that message bottles are lost in the sea.
About "Yasu's true characterization", I don't know what you're saying. You actually don't know what a psychopath is I'll cut here. I think you still misunderstood Sayo's motives and have too much compassion for her. Don't worry I forgive you ;) that's what the magic ending is about.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

I have already explained how she is not a psychopath. Yasu being a psycopath defeats the entire damn purpose of all of her motives, her desire to lose, everything. It contradicts her character.

The voice actor is important. You said that the person over the phone wasn't Battler, but it was, as proven by the VA. And no, her main goal isn't intact in Ep 5. Her main goal is to commit a murder suicide. Her goal in Ep 5 is to humiliate Natsuhi and get her to confess what she did to her. Because the game is loveless and twisted.

The dining room is irrelevant. That entire scene never happened anyway. The knock and letter being placed never happened.

No. That entire last paragraph is entirely wrong, and it shows that you have absolutely no love and that this argument is a pure waste of time. I know very well what a psychopath is. Yasu is not one. I understand Yasu's motives perfectly, because they are outlined in Confession. Don't you even think about saying that that wasn't true, because that makes you no better than Rosatricers. I'm ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ done here if you actually think that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.