So.......Whos the culprit? How did they do it? why did they do it? how were the close rooms constructed?

[degenl0rd]

Some one please help meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Battler Ushiromiya]

The culprit is Yasu, who you might know better as Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice. Yasu created distinct personalities for all three of them. The reason Shannon and Kanon allowed to appear in the same scenes together is because, in those scenes, they're either not in the room with the Detective, or the Detective doesn't acknowledge both of them at the same time. The closed rooms were all constructed in various different ways. I recommend taking a trip over to the Umineko wiki. All of the Episodes through Episode 6 have their truths stated there, or for you to read the manga. Or, if you're really confident in your mystery solving abilities and have a lot of time to spare, go through the parts and try and figure out the mysteries yourself.

[jkly]

I was only at Chapter 5 and someone recently unintentionally spoiled the ending for me. Now I don't want to read it anymore.



OBVIOUS SPOILERS











The real solution sounds so out there. This isn't the case of an unreliable narrator, it feels like the case of a delusional schizophrenic narrator who doesn't follow their own schizophrenic rules. We're supposed to know Kanon and Shannon aren't real and it's all this Yasu person quickchanging and crossdressing all over the game? How? They don't even look alike.

Kanon and Shannon were allegedly never seen together, although they were from multiple points of view including Battler's in the dream world and Erika's and both of their corpses were discovered after the first sacrifice in Chapter 3, and detailed information on where their corpses were found and how they were murdered was put in their character file? They gave us about 50 hours of information and call most of it a lie, then cherry pick information like Shannon's offhand "white horse comment" out of it to support this crazy solution? That isn't a red herring, it feels like flat out lying to the reader so that they can later introduce this "huge, shocking twist."

What I admired about Shannon and Kanon was the fact that they were continously standing up to the witch even though they were at an obvious disadvantage. But now I realize they don't really exist and the person who created them was in on the face smashing and the candy gorging eviserations. Oh and they are apparently really, really good at duct taping what looks like a D cup chest down to a 28AA. Or were the Shannon and Beatrice alter egos just heavily padding their bras?


And it was a big conspiracy to lie about seeing Shannon's corpse in the rose garden shed and Kanon not really existing why? How was that advantageous? Yasu was planning on killing everyone before the seagulls cried anyway. Since so much of what I believed was still part of the real world (like the crime scene descriptions) was fabricated and didn't really happen, I prefer the fantasy BS with the goats and the sisters of the seven stakes. I feel like I wasted my time trying to figure out a solution because I was repeatedly lied to and I wasn't given all of the facts in the first place.

Dangan Ronpa is just as nuts in some ways, but when they mislead you or introduce flat out lies, they leave some hints to let you know that these alleged facts may need to be challenged. When the solution was introduced, my response was "Oh my God, I can't believe I didn't notice that. That was genius." Its creativity doesn't get in the way of it making sense.

Anyway, I have enjoyed the series up to this point and maybe I really needed to transition to this solution instead of being slammed with it all of the sudden before I finished the game. WTF solutions are obviously no stranger to this game, but I can't quite get over this one. it feels like the author changed his mind about who the murderer was supposed to be halfway through the series.

I assume there was some stuff in between all of this that would have helped the game to make more sense because from what I saw in the question arcs, it doesn't.

I'm going to have to take a break from this and come back to it.

I'm so ticked off right now. I HATE getting spoiled before I reach the end of something.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Originally posted by jkly:

I was only at Chapter 5 and someone recently unintentionally spoiled the ending for me. Now I don't want to read it anymore.



OBVIOUS SPOILERS











The real solution sounds so out there. This isn't the case of an unreliable narrator, it feels like the case of a delusional schizophrenic narrator who doesn't follow their own schizophrenic rules. We're supposed to know Kanon and Shannon aren't real and it's all this Yasu person quickchanging and crossdressing all over the game? How? They don't even look alike.

Kanon and Shannon were allegedly never seen together, although they were from multiple points of view including Battler's in the dream world and Erika's and both of their corpses were discovered after the first sacrifice in Chapter 3, and detailed information on where their corpses were found and how they were murdered was put in their character file? They gave us about 50 hours of information and call most of it a lie, then cherry pick information like Shannon's offhand "white horse comment" out of it to support this crazy solution? That isn't a red herring, it feels like flat out lying to the reader so that they can later introduce this "huge, shocking twist."

What I admired about Shannon and Kanon was the fact that they were continously standing up to the witch even though they were at an obvious disadvantage. But now I realize they don't really exist and the person who created them was in on the face smashing and the candy gorging eviserations. Oh and they are apparently really, really good at duct taping what looks like a D cup chest down to a 28AA. Or were the Shannon and Beatrice alter egos just heavily padding their bras?


And it was a big conspiracy to lie about seeing Shannon's corpse in the rose garden shed and Kanon not really existing why? How was that advantageous? Yasu was planning on killing everyone before the seagulls cried anyway. Since so much of what I believed was still part of the real world (like the crime scene descriptions) was fabricated and didn't really happen, I prefer the fantasy BS with the goats and the sisters of the seven stakes. I feel like I wasted my time trying to figure out a solution because I was repeatedly lied to and I wasn't given all of the facts in the first place.

Dangan Ronpa is just as nuts in some ways, but when they mislead you or introduce flat out lies, they leave some hints to let you know that these alleged facts may need to be challenged. When the solution was introduced, my response was "Oh my God, I can't believe I didn't notice that. That was genius." Its creativity doesn't get in the way of it making sense.

Anyway, I have enjoyed the series up to this point and maybe I really needed to transition to this solution instead of being slammed with it all of the sudden before I finished the game. WTF solutions are obviously no stranger to this game, but I can't quite get over this one. it feels like the author changed his mind about who the murderer was supposed to be halfway through the series.

I assume there was some stuff in between all of this that would have helped the game to make more sense because from what I saw in the question arcs, it doesn't.

I'm going to have to take a break from this and come back to it.

I'm so ticked off right now. I HATE getting spoiled before I reach the end of something.

Nonononononono. First of all, you do not need to worry about being spoiled. The culprit is only a small part, and they're never said in the work itself. Keep playing. Second, you need to have a very keen eye in order to see the Shannon/Kanon twist, you're not "expected" to know it. Third, they do look very similar. The things that don't look similar, like hair and eyes, can be changed with a wig and contacts. They were never once seen together. The Meta World doesn't matter, you can see whatever there, and Erika never acknowledged that they were both in the room. Well, either that, or she was looking at the board from a Meta World perspective as opposed to a Piece perspective, I don't remember which. I was confused on that Erika point myself, but when it was clarified, it made sense.

Next, they APPEAR to be murdered, but, most of the time at least, they never were. Yasu fakes her death numerous times, although there are a few times where she does actually die. They do not "give you 50 hours of information and call most of it lies". I mean, a big part of the story is figuring out what is true and false, but saying that is not accurate at all. Next, Ryukishi does not cherry pick information, and he does not do it to have a twist. He knew the entire solution when he started writing, and he wrote the entire story to support that. All of the pieces fit into place perfectly, they are just well hidden.

And nononononononno, your WHOLE third paragraph is just wrong. Those conversatins that Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice had were all symbolic. That entire paragraph shows that you did not bother to learn the full story. "Don't forget the heart" is a phrase brought up commonly later in the game. You're forgetting the heart, you never BOTHERED to learn it. Do so if you're going to talk about this seriously. Also, Beatrice and Shannon have breast forms.

No, there was no conspiracy. That scene in the tool shed? Only Hideyoshi, Yasu's accomplice in the first Episode, saw the body, and he lied to George about it. George never saw it, nor did Battler. And the ♥♥♥♥ are you talking about "Kanon not existing"? This entire paragraph is also just wrong. Like, you are not understanding the work at all here. You got spoiled on one minor thing, and you think you know the entire work. No. You have a tiny bit of information in a sea of it. You understand relatively nothing with just that trifling bit.

Let me tell you right now, your entire comment is innacurate as hell. You do not know the motive for the murders and why Yasu created the Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice personas. You don't know her mindset. And you don't seem to realize that, in the first four episodes, Ryukishi gave you all of the information you needed in order to determine what happened. All that crap about "lying to you" is not true. He HIDES everything behind a veil of magic.

[jkly]

LOL, I knew I was going to get a response like this after looking some of this up and seeing how feverishly people are defending their different theories to the point of personally insulting each other.

You may very well be right and I'm just not getting it. I acknowledged that possibility. I NEED to read the rest of it. Like I said, I liked it or I wouldn't have put forward 50 plus hours to read it.

However, this game has made me extremely angry right now and you just sound like a butthurt fanatic. I feel like I was just accused of blasphemy. You made me want to walk away from it even more.

If you'd kept it polite, the way you started out, I would have been way more interested in what you have to say.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Originally posted by jkly:

LOL, I knew I was going to get a response like this after looking some of this up and seeing how feverishly people are defending their different theories to the point of personally insulting each other.

You may very well be right and I'm just not getting it. I acknowledged that possibility. I NEED to read the rest of it. Like I said, I liked it or I wouldn't have put forward 50 plus hours to read it.

However, this game has made me extremely angry right now and you just sound like a butthurt fanatic. I feel like I was just accused of blasphemy. You just made me want to walk away from it even more.

If you'd kept it polite, the way you started out, I would have been way more interested in what you have to say.

I am not at all. I'm just stating facts, really. Everything I've said is factual. And I'm not really "butthurt", either. The most I got was frustrated when you were acting like you knew the whole story, when you don't. Like, that's how it came off to me, that you were acting like you knew the whole story just because you knew that one twist, and I would generally act that way towards anybody who did something like that on any story, not just you and not just Umineko.

[jkly]

I admitted that I didn't know the entire story and I needed to keep reading it in order for it to maybe make more sense. I even said I like the story up that point.

As of now, the solution still sounds ludicrous to me. Sorry if that offends you.

I would like to see some clues in there supporting this, but the question arc is filled with misleading dialogue held with people who are already dead and who don't really exist. The red text is really all they give you. Most of it is just metaphorical filler that has little bearing on reality. That's where my frustration comes from.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Originally posted by jkly:

I admitted that I didn't know the entire story and I needed to keep reading it in order for it to maybe make more sense. I even said I like the story up that point.

As of now, the solution still sounds ludicrous to me. Sorry if that offends you.

I would like to see some clues in there supporting this, but the question arc is filled with misleading dialogue held with people who are already dead and who don't really exist. The red text is really all they give you. Most of it is just metaphorical filler that has little bearing on reality. That's where my frustration comes from.

Except, like I said earlier, it's not unfairly misleading. Everything makes perfect sense, especially when you know the truth. It is entirely possible to piece it together in just the first four Episodes, and I do know people who have. As I said, it's hidden behind a veil of magic. And with all of the magic battles, why wouldn't there be small things hidden in there as well? The fact is, Shannon and Kanon are never acknowledged being in the same place by the Detective. And saying "they don't really exist" is incorrect to begin with. And no, none of it is "metaphorical filler". Not a single bit.

[jkly]

I see what you're saying, but I disagree. The only thing that really makes sense to me with the murderer being Yasu is how Kinzo got out of his locked study without disturbing the receipt in the door.

Like I said, I liked the story. In every chapter, the events between the first twilight and the 8th twilight had me on the edge of my seat. I even put the Question arc in my favorites folder after I finished playing it.

Is it a good story? Yes. Is it a good mystery story? IMO, no.

How is it possible to piece it together in the first four episdoes? At the end of episode 4, maybe, because they finally inform us that Kinzo is actually dead and that the person the six met with was someone who may have assumed the role of the Head in Kinzo's place.

The other hint that I thought was semi-charitable was Kanon's body disappearing. However, they do that only in episode 2 and 4. Although there's no real evidence his body disappeared in chapter 4, since the grate to the well was locked and Battler couldn't see down inside it. However, we were told by Kyrie that both Shannon and Kanon were with them and where their bodies would be found. So now we either assume that Kyrie is being held with some sort of weapon against her throat forcing her to lie or that the events happened in a way that metaphorically resembled what she saw and told us.

And Yasu was sure busy again, running after Kyrie, holding her hostage with some sort of weapon, creating locked room puzzles left and right, locking the grate to the well and dressing up as Beatrice to confront Batller and then dressing up as Shannon again, doing something to her head to make it look like half of it was smashed and then playing dead in the rain until Batller found the "corpse."

I only assume the game eventually has some sort of explanation as to how that was carried out. But anyway, i'm done talking to you.

I haven't finished the game at this point, so I agree that I'm not being completely fair to it, but all you want to talk about is how the game is perfect in every way and how BS it is that I don't agree with you.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Except everything DOES make sense. There is a meticulous explanation for literally everything. Also, did you not remember Episode 4 or 5? Kinzo was already dead. This is true of all games.

Simple: The way Ryukishi wrote the first four episodes made it more than possible for a perceptive reader to figure it out. Episodes 5-8 were literally just said to be extra hints for those who couldn't figure it out after 4. You have to think outside of the box, and it is incredibly difficult, but it is certainly possible.

Or Kyrie is an accomplice? For that is the reason that she told Battler that: She is an accomplice in that specific game. I mean, changing clothes doesn't take that long. And you forget that Battler finding Shannon's body happened in the morning. And no, she did not fake her death. She genuinely did kill herself there. Why do you assume that she did kill herself? Her dead body was found by Battler, the detective. Why doubt that she died?

I never once said or otherwise implied that it was BS that you didn't agree. And I do not think it's perfect, but my only issues with it are the occasional pacing issues.

[jkly]

Sure. That's what I said, in chapter 4 we find out via red text that Kinzo is long dead at the beginning of all of the games.

About the BS thing, you came pretty close. I'll take your word for it that that was not your intention, but you did write this:

Originally posted by author:

No, there was no conspiracy. That scene in the tool shed? Only Hideyoshi, Yasu's accomplice in the first Episode, saw the body, and he lied to George about it. George never saw it, nor did Battler. And the ♥♥♥♥ are you talking about "Kanon not existing"? This entire paragraph is also just wrong. Like, you are not understanding the work at all here. You got spoiled on one minor thing, and you think you know the entire work. No. You have a tiny bit of information in a sea of it. You understand relatively nothing with just that trifling bit.

Let me tell you right now, your entire comment is innacurate as hell. You do not know the motive for the murders and why Yasu created the Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice personas. You don't know her mindset. And you don't seem to realize that, in the first four episodes, Ryukishi gave you all of the information you needed in order to determine what happened. All that crap about "lying to you" is not true

If you're saying there is a meticulous explanation for all of this, I'll definitely check it out. I just assumed there was not because there are so many different theories floating around on the internet that it seems like some, but not all of it was really explained. Some people don't even seem to think Yasu was the killer.

The Shannon killed herself at the end of chapter 4 answer does work since I don't believe Battler saw Beatrice after he found the Shannon disguised corpse. I assume this would be because he failed to remember his sin from six years ago.

Okay. I'm tired of explaining to you why I think certain details and explanations come across to me, just me personally, as sort of a cop out. Thank you for taking the time to answer some of my questions. I wish you the best.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

No, there is one concrete explanation. There are only two "real" theories, one of them was already confirmed by the author, and the other is just generally not good.

And those certain details are solely because you have not seen the full story, as each of us has said. I only really came close to calling it BS because, like I said, I was frustrated that a lot of your comment seemed to me that you were acting like you knew the full story.

[treeflower]

The Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice theory can't explain all the red truth in umineko. In particular the ones about the letter be delivered in chapter 5. Be sure to notice the differences between Beatrice games in 1-4 and Lambdadeltas in 5.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Originally posted by treeflower:

The Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice theory can't explain all the red truth in umineko. In particular the ones about the letter be delivered in chapter 5. Be sure to notice the differences between Beatrice games in 1-4 and Lambdadeltas in 5.

It doesn't need to explain what never happens. There was no letter there. No red said that the letter was there, and Erika wasn't there at the time. Well, no, that's poor wording. More like, there was no knock and the letter was never placed in the hall. Yasu had revealed herself to everyone but Erika, Krauss, and Natsuhi in Episode 5, so she just directly gave the ring to Battler

[treeflower]

Vaild blue truth. Most people i see try to explain umineko just skip that little puzzle. so how about another. Whos body is it in the shed in chapter 1 if it's not shannon. Don't say it's a mystery body X since i'm pretty sure there is no evidence of another corpse on the island other then kinzo.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Originally posted by treeflower:

Vaild blue truth. Most people i see try to explain umineko just skip that little puzzle. so how about another. Whos body is it in the shed in chapter 1 if it's not shannon. Don't say it's a mystery body X since i'm pretty sure there is no evidence of another corpse on the island other then kinzo.

It is Shannon's body. Her living body. Hideyoshi is an accomplice. He is the only one that looked at Shannon's corpse, and he lied and told George that her face was like the rest. Neither George not Battler saw the corpse. He got away with this under the guise of George not wanting to his his fiancee's brutally murdered corpse. And Kanon was not at the scene at the time.