How Umineko (And the existence of the Rosatrice theory) broke me

[PixelPerfect]

I'm not looking for a debate. I just want to share my thoughts and find some closure.

During the time I was reading Umineko, I was having the best time of my life. I was giving passionate performances for all the characters, emotionally investing myself in their stories, and engaging with the mystery to an extent. And when it was over, I was left with a beautiful ending that didn’t bring a logical resolution, but definitely an emotional one. I bawled my eyes out during the end credits. I felt like I experienced something I would remember forever. But then I was left with a myriad of questions, and I went looking for answers. I heard briefly about Shkanontrice, but I never really fleshed out my knowledge around that explanation. So I went on YouTube, and found the infamous 9-hour monster that is KNM’s breakdown of the entire Umineko story, which didn’t really seem like much since, you know, I just went through a 100+ hour visual novel, and one of my favorite albums is Everywhere at the End of Time.

I dedicated my time to it, and everything started to make sense. His theory was solid, well thought out, and seemed to have no obvious blunders, and after hearing what the official solution was, I decided that his theory sat better with me, and I felt like I could make peace with the story and move on to something else. But then I went onto the Umineko subreddit, and this is where I started to fall down an incredibly debilitating rabbit hole. I asked something along the lines of “What motivations does the author have to give out ‘The Single Truth’?” I wanted to know why the author of a piece of art as abstract, confusing, and cryptic as Umineko would not only put out an answer to the riddle, but to say that “This explanation is correct and everything else is wrong”, essentially shutting down most discussion around the mystery. I reached my own personal truth, and I thought I could move on.

But my biggest mistake was trying to defend the alternate theory in online conversation, or even the *possibility* of one. It cost me karma, my reputation in the Umineko community, and my own sanity. I felt worse after every exchange, and I started to question whether my entire view of Umineko was misguided and wrong. I quickly abandoned the notion that the alternate theory was the “better” or "true" solution, and I merely tried to allow the existence of both theories. And after I reread Episode 5’s hidden tea party, I discovered what I wanted all along: the allowance of the existence of multiple truths. “In this closed-off world, it’s possible for differing truths to exist at the same time. Furthermore, as long as multiple truths exist, it’s impossible to claim that any of the truths are the single truth.”

I then thought that maybe this was always how it was meant to be. There may be *a* solution, but there didn't necessarily need to be only one. And as long as they both exist, you can choose which one fits best for you. You can choose what to believe in. Even that idea wasn’t good enough for them. But the absolute worst comment I got was one that said that there is no more discussion to be had about who the culprit is. That was what hurt the most. To think that all this theorizing and speculation around a story I loved so much was a battle that had already been settled years ago devastated me.

Yet I still can’t bring myself to accept the official solution. It doesn’t make sense to me logically and especially not emotionally. The solution to a puzzle should be satisfying, yet the solution that was provided by the author seems like it was meant to make for a good story rather than a good puzzle. Puzzles are meant to be logical, yet all this talk of multiple personalities and being able to make almost everyone except the detective an accomplice feels only slightly more believable than that everything was done by a witch. In fact, maybe even less believable, since at least magic follows its own rules.

I still don’t know what to think anymore. Did the author screw up? Why would he miss such obvious blunders? Was the game even fair in the first place? Does he even like or trust his readers? Is a perfect solution even possible? Why do you have to do so much mental gymnastics in order to get some red truths to fit the official solution? Was it even intended for there to be an alternate explanation? That 9-hour explanation video is just too sound to be a coincidence.

And after all this back and forth, instead of retreating to one explanation or the other and staying there, I started to doubt what to even believe in the first place. And that’s where I’m stuck.

PS: I know that I shouldn't let comments from strangers on the internet kill my enjoyment of something I love, but I think the reason it got to me was not because they were mean or anything. It's because these arguments were coming from seemingly normal fans of Umineko. It implied that the vast majority of Umineko thought like this. That they thought any discussion of the mystery was not just unnecessary, but problematic. I was made to feel like I was morally compromised for trying to engage in discussion of this novel I loved so much, and for trying to add a new voice to the conversation. My least favorite thing in the world is being misunderstood, and I thought that Umineko would be a small fandom that I could feel at home in. And right after I got all that pushback, I felt more isolated than ever. And this is coming from someone who is still struggling to find "their people".

PPS: Let me go into a bit more detail about why I stopped debating Umineko. The main reason is because my opponent essentially has to convince me of two things at once: that my interpretation is wrong, and that their explanation is right. They’ll often poke holes in my theory, which may be somewhat valid and will end up sewing doubt in me, but that doesn’t make me start to believe in their explanation. At its worst, it’ll result in me being unable to believe in any explanation at all, and that's what ends up causing the most dread. If I'm ever going to discuss Umineko again, there has to be a mutual understanding that there isn't going to be a perfect solution. As is the case with most fiction, any explanation will need a few leaps in logic, and the only difference between my choice of explanation and the author's choice is where we suspend our disbelief. In the words of Innuendo Studios: "The text may strike you as clear or confused or at odds with itself, but in any case you draw what meaning you can from it and... that's that. That's as true as anything you're going to get."

[PixelPerfect]

I was literally backing off peacefully and you chased me down just to sneer at me. Read the literal first line of the first post. You knew that me going back into the debate would only hurt me, so you tried to force me back into it for your own amusement. If that isn't exactly what Erika's character was meant to condemn, then I have no idea what purpose she serves.

[Tamagon]

Originally posted by PixelPerfect:

I was literally backing off peacefully and you chased me down just to sneer at me. Read the literal first line of the first post. You knew that me going back into the debate would only hurt me, so you tried to force me back into it for your own amusement. If that isn't exactly what Erika's character was meant to condemn, then I have no idea what purpose she serves.

I didn't chase you, I was googling Rosatrice as part of a video essay I was contemplating making* and found this discussion. Like, on the front page of Google too. It's a niche theory for a niche work, what'd you expect?

Btw, here's a screenshot of my video essay script, in case you think I'm lying: https://i.imgur.com/b69agZq.png

* seeing how niche Rosatrice really is these days kinda sapped my energy to keep making it though

[DeRockProject (jongyon7192p)]

more video essays would be sick

[Tamagon]

My issue is I think few people actually like alt-culprit theories, they just hate the official solution, so I may as well just make a video defending that. And at that point it's just another "Why Umineko is good" video essay : P

Like OP (and a lot of theorists) deny that Ange dies in Rosatrice, despite that being an integral part of the theory. The whole point of Rosatrice is to not play with the reds. If you're playing with the reds to allow for Eva and Battler's survival, then why not just go with the official solution?

Not to mention the whole can of worms in trying to harmonize Ange's story with Rosatrice. Anyone who does so will quickly realize why KNM simply said Ange died : P

[PixelPerfect]

Originally posted by DeRockProject (jongyon7192p):

more video essays would be sick

I'll definitely think about making something like that. It's quite the rarity for people to stumble into Umineko in this day and age, but I feel like my connection with it is too strong to go unexpressed. I'm currently reading it to my dad, and he's getting super invested in it. Maybe once we finish it, I'll be able to organize my thoughts and make an essay about it.

Additional comments:

As someone who both loves emotional stories and logic puzzles, I was expecting everything to be tied together in a way that both made sense and told an emotional story, but the official solution doesn't personally give me either. That's right, I have emotional reasons for rejecting the official solution. First off, it means that Sayo is in love with three people at once, and all of those relationships are incestuous rather than just one. Plus, she's willing to brutally murder George and Jessica along with everyone else just to get back at her ex.

Rosa's guilt for killing the Kuwadorian Beatrice is practically inconsequential in the official solution, but with Rosatrice, both Rosa's guilt and Shannon's pain of being betrayed by Battler have a place in the greater narrative. I do believe Sayo would want to get back at Battler in some way, but I don't think she'd kill the others (especially George) to do so. In fact, when she jokes about the "riding on a white horse" line in the third game, I feel like that should be a sign that she's already gotten over it and is able to joke about it. She seems genuinely happy with George, and Kanon seems genuinely happy with Jessica.

But of course, since Ange is my boo, I don't agree that she died. In fact, if you believe that Ange's world isn't the real world, it's much easier to allow her to survive, since many of the scenes where she supposedly "dies" don't necessarily take place (since you can't die multiple times in the real world). There's no red in the visual novel saying that she died, so whether she's alive or dead is always an assumption. It just depends on what makes more sense to you.

[Tamagon]

Originally posted by PixelPerfect:

First off, it means that Sayo is in love with three people at once, and all of those relationships are incestuous rather than just one. Plus, she's willing to brutally murder George and Jessica along with everyone else just to get back at her ex.

That's not what Sayo's motive is. The story even debunks this in red:

Her goal is not to make someone experience fear. And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.

Sayo's motive is she has a victim complex. She refuses to take responsibility for her actions and uses the epitaph to make decisions for her. I don't even get your point about Sayo murdering her lovers, I could just as easily dunk on Rosatrice for Rosa murdering Maria.

It's also unfair to dunk on the official solution for the incest, since Rosatrice is not just incest-y but also very pedophilic. Yes, I know Rosatrice insists that Rosa isn't actually romantically into Battler. And that's an insanely silly argument. Battler and Beato straight up get married in EP 6. There's too much subtext to dismiss.

Rosa's guilt for killing the Kuwadorian Beatrice is practically inconsequential in the official solution, but with Rosatrice, both Rosa's guilt and Shannon's pain of being betrayed by Battler have a place in the greater narrative.

It's not inconsequential, it's easy to read between the lines and see Rosa's guilt as a factor in her rage at Maria for practicing magic. And she comes to terms with the whole thing in EP 7.

It just doesn't define Rosa solely by her guilt, which is reasonable. She's a grown woman, a single mother, and a business owner. She's able suppress the guilt. Contrast to Sayo, who never let herself grow up, leave the nest and truly let go of her trauma.

But of course, since Ange is my boo, I don't agree that she died. In fact, if you believe that Ange's world isn't the real world, it's much easier to allow her to survive, since many of the scenes where she supposedly "dies" don't necessarily take place (since you can't die multiple times in the real world). There's no red in the visual novel saying that she died, so whether she's alive or dead is always an assumption. It just depends on what makes more sense to you.

That's the thing: Ange is dead, functionally speaking. Ange as we know her is entirely defined by growing up under Eva. No Eva means a completely different Ange.

But considering that in this timeline, the Sumaderas would adopt Ange...yeah, she's likely literally dead too : P

[DeRockProject (jongyon7192p)]

Originally posted by PixelPerfect:

I'll definitely think about making something like that. It's quite the rarity for people to stumble into Umineko in this day and age, but I feel like my connection with it is too strong to go unexpressed.

See this is the spirit, make Umineko content every day lets go

[PixelPerfect]

Originally posted by DeRockProject (jongyon7192p):

As for Rosatrice, I find KNM's series a nice 9th episode to Umineko, which just needs R07's classic over-the-top meta sidestory to be indistinguishable from an actual episode. It's a fantastic Erika-style barrage that I didn't know I needed more of. Problem is that it needs a 10th episode and nobody ever made one.

Honestly, that video and Umineko are practically inseparable to me. Whether or not you agree with it, I feel like every Umineko fan should watch it at least once.

I feel like if it were an actual episode of Umineko, it'd probably take place in Ange's world, showing us how she's rebuilt her life after all she's been through in the main arcs. Maybe she's finally managed to truly open up to someone after being unable to do so for so long. There could also be the discussion of themes such as the nature of internet discourse, the relationship between author and reader as well as the death of the author, how the message of the forgeries translated across cultural and lingual barriers, and it could also take a more personal angle on Tohya and Ikuko, analyzing how their personal struggles influenced how the forgeries turned out, as well as how they interacted with the public. They could also re-introduce some of episode 5's themes, since Battler in that game was in a somewhat similar position as KNM was at the time.

Of course, this wouldn't be a direct copy of KNM's theory due to actually taking place in the Umineko universe, and if I were to make it, I'd end up inserting some of my own ideas and making small adjustments here and there. But I think it's still a fairly interesting idea, and I might write some scenes in a google doc or something. One of the ideas I'd insert is my theory that the red truths contained in Tohya and Ikuko's forgeries aren't guaranteed to apply to the real world. They're merely a rule placed in their detective novel series *based* on Rokkenjima. Featherine even says that her novels are only one of many interpretations of what happened.

And as for a title? ...How about 'Smokescreen of the Golden Witch'.

[DeRockProject (jongyon7192p)]

^ This. I love Erika as a villain and I feel KNM played an excellent villain for his "EP9" of Umineko, a hero in his own story (and of those who agree with him). I mean Erika was a bit too unsympathetic after all. I think KNM is very intelligent and quite dedicated to make the videos he did. He's wrong, but I give him that.

Yeah it'd be a story in Ange's world after EP8, dealing with another sprout of theorizing, where a significant portion of people converges onto Rosatrice after 1 charismatic influencer, acting as a witch/mage in the meta world. No clue how the story would go from there.

I do mean it's missing an EP 10, maybe a refutation of Rosatrice, or maybe a more middleground "we'll never know" approach. But that can't happen unless we the fandom stop to come to a vague general consensus some day. KNM worked and thought very hard to make his series and we (or one of us) should respect that and build our own response on the same level if we want to counter him.

[DeRockProject (jongyon7192p)]

I admit, i'm just baiting for another video series. I enjoyed going through KNM's and debating with myself over its contents. Want more.

[Arap5]

sorry this isn't related at all but i follow u on rym lol!!!! wild to see u in steam umineko comments !!!

[PixelPerfect]

Originally posted by Arap5:

sorry this isn't related at all but i follow u on rym lol!!!! wild to see u in steam umineko comments !!!

You know, that's funny. I actually discovered Umineko through rateyourmusic. I saw the soundtrack to it highly rated in the charts, and also had a similar style to Taishi's work. One thing led to another and I had one of the most beautifully harrowing experiences of my life.

[Tomat228]

Ignore redditar*s. If author made logic errors that means explanation with less contadictions is better.

[Gordo]

tldr

[irchisoop]

Originally posted by PixelPerfect:

PS: I know that I shouldn't let comments from strangers on the internet kill my enjoyment of something I love, but I think the reason it got to me was not because they were mean or anything. It's because these arguments were coming from seemingly normal fans of Umineko. It implied that the vast majority of Umineko thought like this. That they thought any discussion of the mystery was not just unnecessary, but problematic. I was made to feel like I was morally compromised for trying to engage in discussion of this novel I loved so much, and for trying to add a new voice to the conversation. My least favorite thing in the world is being misunderstood, and I thought that Umineko would be a small fandom that I could feel at home in. And right after I got all that pushback, I felt more isolated than ever. And this is coming from someone who is still struggling to find "their people".

PPS: Let me go into a bit more detail about why I stopped debating Umineko. The main reason is because my opponent essentially has to convince me of two things at once: that my interpretation is wrong, and that their explanation is right. They’ll often poke holes in my theory, which may be somewhat valid and will end up sewing doubt in me, but that doesn’t make me start to believe in their explanation. At its worst, it’ll result in me being unable to believe in any explanation at all, and that's what ends up causing the most dread. If I'm ever going to discuss Umineko again, there has to be a mutual understanding that there isn't going to be a perfect solution. As is the case with most fiction, any explanation will need a few leaps in logic, and the only difference between my choice of explanation and the author's choice is where we suspend our disbelief. In the words of Innuendo Studios: "The text may strike you as clear or confused or at odds with itself, but in any case you draw what meaning you can from it and... that's that. That's as true as anything you're going to get."

PixelPerfect, don’t worry, Umineko indeed has quite aggressive fans. It’s hard to expect anything else from those who turned the profound phrase “without love, it cannot be seen” into a veiled way of saying “you’re blind and stupid.”

The main thing is, don’t rush to give up. Rosa, in my opinion, is a culprit, but unfortunately, the author’s Rosatrice theory does have a number of issues, and most of these problems are related to the red truth. Don’t forget the other slogan of the game: “to stop thinking is to lose.” If you keep searching for the truth, you will definitely find it.