How Umineko (And the existence of the Rosatrice theory) broke me

[PixelPerfect]

I'm not looking for a debate. I just want to share my thoughts and find some closure.

During the time I was reading Umineko, I was having the best time of my life. I was giving passionate performances for all the characters, emotionally investing myself in their stories, and engaging with the mystery to an extent. And when it was over, I was left with a beautiful ending that didn’t bring a logical resolution, but definitely an emotional one. I bawled my eyes out during the end credits. I felt like I experienced something I would remember forever. But then I was left with a myriad of questions, and I went looking for answers. I heard briefly about Shkanontrice, but I never really fleshed out my knowledge around that explanation. So I went on YouTube, and found the infamous 9-hour monster that is KNM’s breakdown of the entire Umineko story, which didn’t really seem like much since, you know, I just went through a 100+ hour visual novel, and one of my favorite albums is Everywhere at the End of Time.

I dedicated my time to it, and everything started to make sense. His theory was solid, well thought out, and seemed to have no obvious blunders, and after hearing what the official solution was, I decided that his theory sat better with me, and I felt like I could make peace with the story and move on to something else. But then I went onto the Umineko subreddit, and this is where I started to fall down an incredibly debilitating rabbit hole. I asked something along the lines of “What motivations does the author have to give out ‘The Single Truth’?” I wanted to know why the author of a piece of art as abstract, confusing, and cryptic as Umineko would not only put out an answer to the riddle, but to say that “This explanation is correct and everything else is wrong”, essentially shutting down most discussion around the mystery. I reached my own personal truth, and I thought I could move on.

But my biggest mistake was trying to defend the alternate theory in online conversation, or even the *possibility* of one. It cost me karma, my reputation in the Umineko community, and my own sanity. I felt worse after every exchange, and I started to question whether my entire view of Umineko was misguided and wrong. I quickly abandoned the notion that the alternate theory was the “better” or "true" solution, and I merely tried to allow the existence of both theories. And after I reread Episode 5’s hidden tea party, I discovered what I wanted all along: the allowance of the existence of multiple truths. “In this closed-off world, it’s possible for differing truths to exist at the same time. Furthermore, as long as multiple truths exist, it’s impossible to claim that any of the truths are the single truth.”

I then thought that maybe this was always how it was meant to be. There may be *a* solution, but there didn't necessarily need to be only one. And as long as they both exist, you can choose which one fits best for you. You can choose what to believe in. Even that idea wasn’t good enough for them. But the absolute worst comment I got was one that said that there is no more discussion to be had about who the culprit is. That was what hurt the most. To think that all this theorizing and speculation around a story I loved so much was a battle that had already been settled years ago devastated me.

Yet I still can’t bring myself to accept the official solution. It doesn’t make sense to me logically and especially not emotionally. The solution to a puzzle should be satisfying, yet the solution that was provided by the author seems like it was meant to make for a good story rather than a good puzzle. Puzzles are meant to be logical, yet all this talk of multiple personalities and being able to make almost everyone except the detective an accomplice feels only slightly more believable than that everything was done by a witch. In fact, maybe even less believable, since at least magic follows its own rules.

I still don’t know what to think anymore. Did the author screw up? Why would he miss such obvious blunders? Was the game even fair in the first place? Does he even like or trust his readers? Is a perfect solution even possible? Why do you have to do so much mental gymnastics in order to get some red truths to fit the official solution? Was it even intended for there to be an alternate explanation? That 9-hour explanation video is just too sound to be a coincidence.

And after all this back and forth, instead of retreating to one explanation or the other and staying there, I started to doubt what to even believe in the first place. And that’s where I’m stuck.

PS: I know that I shouldn't let comments from strangers on the internet kill my enjoyment of something I love, but I think the reason it got to me was not because they were mean or anything. It's because these arguments were coming from seemingly normal fans of Umineko. It implied that the vast majority of Umineko thought like this. That they thought any discussion of the mystery was not just unnecessary, but problematic. I was made to feel like I was morally compromised for trying to engage in discussion of this novel I loved so much, and for trying to add a new voice to the conversation. My least favorite thing in the world is being misunderstood, and I thought that Umineko would be a small fandom that I could feel at home in. And right after I got all that pushback, I felt more isolated than ever. And this is coming from someone who is still struggling to find "their people".

PPS: Let me go into a bit more detail about why I stopped debating Umineko. The main reason is because my opponent essentially has to convince me of two things at once: that my interpretation is wrong, and that their explanation is right. They’ll often poke holes in my theory, which may be somewhat valid and will end up sewing doubt in me, but that doesn’t make me start to believe in their explanation. At its worst, it’ll result in me being unable to believe in any explanation at all, and that's what ends up causing the most dread. If I'm ever going to discuss Umineko again, there has to be a mutual understanding that there isn't going to be a perfect solution. As is the case with most fiction, any explanation will need a few leaps in logic, and the only difference between my choice of explanation and the author's choice is where we suspend our disbelief. In the words of Innuendo Studios: "The text may strike you as clear or confused or at odds with itself, but in any case you draw what meaning you can from it and... that's that. That's as true as anything you're going to get."

[DeRockProject (jongyon7192p)]

Originalmente postado por PixelPerfect:

It cost me karma, my reputation in the Umineko community, and my own sanity

M8, that's not a Umineko problem. How old are you? You seem young if this is new to you. Don't go to social media expecting to have fun. It's a harmful place that stokes anger, cuz rage is what maximizes engagement. Don't blame Umineko on that one.

In fact, both (and every) theories get entangled with politics and surely you're familiar how that's been heated recently.

As for Rosatrice, I find KNM's series a nice 9th episode to Umineko, which just needs R07's classic over-the-top meta sidestory to be indistinguishable from an actual episode. It's a fantastic Erika-style barrage that I didn't know I needed more of. Problem is that it needs a 10th episode and nobody ever made one.

It's fiction so I'm fine with almost anything people do with it as long as they have fun, but this snippet I found does ring true to me: "... R07's strengths lie in characterization and themes, not mysteries. This is partially why alt-culprit theories get backlash: they distort many of the things Umineko is trying to say. eg a reocurring theme of Umineko are its critique of Japanese gender roles, ....."

Also I found these, but can anyone confirm these? https://www.reddit.com/r/umineko/comments/qhvaqi/comment/higf9pb/

Originalmente postado por Tibalt-mtg:

I remember reading somewhere that his theory falls apart because of the red truth “Nanjo is already dead.”...

Originalmente postado por Jeacobern:

I don't think so, because it uses George killing Nanjo and dying right after that, aka the theory from Battler in ep 4. Iirc the og creator stopped believing in the theory and only memed about people thinking it's real. He also deleted the og videos, ...

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Sorry to hear that happened to you.
However, the idea of a "true solution" is only natural. You can't make a story like Umineko and NOT have a set solution. Cuz the whole point of Umineko is to solve it, you know? It's a mystery story, and it's hard to write a coherent mystery story if the author doesn't have a solution. I personally don't think the story works at all if ShKanonTrice isn't true. I'm not gonna say that you're wrong for believing Rosatrice, but I will still believe that Rosatrice makes no sense.
The biggest piece of evidence I have against Rosatrice is the Yasu backstory in Ep 7. Cuz the whole point of that story is to establish the identity of the culprit as Yasu. That's just one massive red herring if the culprit ISN'T Yasu, and I refuse to believe that Ryukishi would spend so long on something that is ultimately meaningless.
Rosatrice does present interesting ideas, don't feel that you wasted your time and if you choose to believe it, more power to you. But I personally think the story doesn't work.

[PixelPerfect]

Thanks for your reply, DeRock. I'm 18, even though my profile picture makes me look 12. I feel like that quote really rings true towards explaining my problem with Umineko. It sacrifices a fair puzzle in the pursuit of telling a story. My dad is an avid puzzle-solver, and he said that he wholeheartedly enjoys the story, and that he hasn't really felt the need to look for "the truth". But he said something interesting when I brought up the official solution. He said that a good puzzle should always have an a-ha moment where once you find the solution, everything clicks into place. But his reaction to the theory was more like "...Seriously? N-no, that's cheating." We believe that something like one person having multiple personalities and being able to essentially bribe anyone and everyone they see fit feels too unrealistic to be seen as the solution to a puzzle. I know about the phrase "Without love, it cannot be seen", but it's definitely possible to make a story that's both intellectually engaging and emotional. That's what got me so attached to the story, and to be left with a solution that does nothing but raise more questions feels like I've been thinking for nothing.

[Sergent H]

i stand with you
After all these years; wasn't close to be convince by shkanon theory and believer, which doesn't rely on the same type of argument for their theory

I don't know if there is multiple theories which can work at same level. But i know you can't convince someone who think he is right

For a debate; both parties must be with a mentality that they come and can accept to be convince they are wrong. Which something is quite rare nowadays

[DeRockProject (jongyon7192p)]

What's "believer"?

[PixelPerfect]

Also, Battler, if Rosatrice doesn't work for you, then that's perfectly fine. If the official solution works for you, I have no reason to stop you. But for me, whilst the story that the official solution tells is fascinating, albeit quite messy, if there are red truths that actively conflict with it, I'll trust the red and twist the white, not trust the white and twist the red. If you want to write a story, you need to play by your own rules. To me, it feels like a little kid changing the rules mid-game to suit his own ends.

The reason I was scared of finding holes in the theory I stick to is because if I was forced to stop believing in it, I didn't think I could believe in anything at all, since Shkanontrice for me is an absolute non-starter.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Originalmente postado por PixelPerfect:

Also, Battler, if Rosatrice doesn't work for you, then that's perfectly fine. If the official solution works for you, I have no reason to stop you. But for me, whilst the story that the official solution tells is fascinating, albeit quite messy, if there are red truths that actively conflict with it, I'll trust the red and twist the white, not trust the white and twist the red. If you want to write a story, you need to play by your own rules. To me, it feels like a little kid changing the rules mid-game to suit his own ends.

He does play by the rules. The point of Umineko is that it is a fair mystery, and plenty of people have solved it with the canon solution. It does fit within the rules, unquestionably, in my opinion.

[DeRockProject (jongyon7192p)]

Look, I've seen arguments for and against canon and noncanon explanations, but saying the canon solution contradicts the Red Truths itself is a new one to me.

[PixelPerfect]

Check out the discussion here called "Red truth logic error", essentially discussing how some of the red truths seem to either directly contradict the official solution, or have to be worked around in ad-hoc ways in order to get them to fit. As for the latter, the fact the thread is so long proves my point on its own, I believe.

[DeRockProject (jongyon7192p)]

Originalmente postado por PixelPerfect:

the fact the thread is so long proves

that it's a very triggering topic. These discussions inevitably involve politics, or topics like incest, and speculations on the author himself. That'd do it for any Umineko discussion.

[PixelPerfect]

Wait, so it involves more than just terminology? How did such sensitive topics get involved? Is there something darker beneath the surface? I'm worried about touching on something I shouldn't.

[DeRockProject (jongyon7192p)]

Rosatrice and Kyrietrice: incest-y
Shkanontrice: trans
Speculating about author: people just making assumptions up about the author based on armchair psychology when they don't know him

No wonder these conversations turn unpleasant, especially in stupid Americans' forums. They're not such hot topics elsewhere, generally cuz people and the country itself has their ♥♥♥♥ together.

[O5]

Just don't pull an ItalianAnon

[PixelPerfect]

Originalmente postado por DeRockProject (jongyon7192p):

Rosatrice and Kyrietrice: incest-y

Shkanontrice would also be incest-y as well, since they're supposedly the child of Kinzo and the Kuwadorian Beatrice. I don't think there's any way around it.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Yeah Umineko is a story about incest lmao. Everything is incest.