Manga contradiction with VN

[Dr Cthulhu]

I finished the game and decided to check some theory videos on YouTube and I notice they use the Manga to solve the crimes in the first 4 chapters of the VN. I am not sure why they are using the Manga here, I never read this Manga (literally finished the VN last night) I am sure it's good but these answers contradict everything the VN teaches us.

By Chapter 5 we are introduced to the Knox Ten commandments. These commandments are used against Battler, they are a legit weapon/defense in this story, Dlanor was brutal with these.

The Manga uses Yasu as the main mastermind in most murders right? Yasu is the granddaughter of Beatrice and the Daughter of Beatrice and she is revealed in Episode 7. She is not the same person as the two Beatrice we are aware of in the first 4 chapters (Grandmother and Mother) She is hinted at in Episode 5 with the phone call and kidnapping Krauss. But she is not mentioned in the first 4 Episodes.

So the manga using Yasu in the first 4 episode murder is a huge the contradiction between the Manga and VN with this one saying...

Knox 1) The criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story.

Maybe the Manga introduces her early in the story but the VN does not.

So therefore Yasu can't be the mastermind in the VN according to its own rules.

Anyways I just wanted to throw that out there. I am sure this is gonna enrage everyone and that's fine, Erika enraged me when she pulled this ♥♥♥♥ also

Great story, I never bothered solving the murders since ultimately there was no murder at all and this was just one big cat box illusion caused by "Santa" magic created by Ange and the Internet. Plus after 200 hours I am ready for a actual game with gameplay.

[Ellixer]

Yasu (Sayo Yasuda is the name assigned to her by the orphanage, and Yasu is the nickname the other servants use), is Shannon and Kanon. Are we clear on this part at least?

Whether a murder happened on the real Rokkenjima is irrelevant (murders did happen by the way, committed by Kyrie and Rudolf and accidentally by Eva), the question is about solving the events of Episode 1 to 4, where Shannon/Kanon/Sayo is the culprit.

Also, incredibly pedantic, but Ange did not create any illusion (neither did the internet honestly, at least as far as the reader is concerned, since we don't see any of the illusion written by "the internet"). The events of Episode 1 to 6 are created (meaning written) by Sayo, Battler and Ikuko.

[Dr Cthulhu]

Yes. But once again that is made clear in episode 7 with the reveal of Yasu herself, not in the question arc.
Knox 1 still stands on Yasu.
But Shannon/Kanon as they appear in the question arc can be the culprits individually or as a team.

[Ellixer]

Shannon/Kanon is the culprit, yes. They appear in Episode 1 and they committed most of the murders from Episode 1 to 4. They are the same person with a single body. This should be obvious by Episode 7. Sayo/Yasu is simply an umbrella term for the two identities they wear in this case.

[Dr Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Ellixer:

Also, incredibly pedantic, but Ange did not create any illusion (neither did the internet honestly, at least as far as the reader is concerned, since we don't see any of the illusion written by "the internet"). The events of Episode 1 to 6 are created (meaning written) by Sayo, Battler and Ikuko.

Oh yeah, it did explain that in that weird ass epilogue. That one is on me. I honestly didn't like the "?????" segment of episode 8. The whole "detachment" aspect that made their reunion postponed until Ange's final day was too much of a gut punch and made me mostly glaze over the text.

[Dr Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Ellixer:

Whether a murder happened on the real Rokkenjima is irrelevant (murders did happen by the way, committed by Kyrie and Rudolf and accidentally by Eva),
.

This was in the tea party portion of episode 7. But I was under the impression the diary of truth idea in episode 8 retcon this story. But now that I think about it you're probably right, I noticed that Battler didn't die in the segment and he did escape.

Originally posted by Ellixer:

Shannon/Kanon is the culprit, yes. They appear in Episode 1 and they committed most of the murders from Episode 1 to 4. They are the same person with a single body. This should be obvious by Episode 7. Sayo/Yasu is simply an umbrella term for the two identities they wear in this case.

So are you saying this VN was expecting the reader to re-read the question arc to figure out the culprit after reading the entire story and learning about Yasu/Shannon/Kanon being one?
Heh, I see why there are internet videos and manga now, that's a lot to ask of a casual reader after reading a 200 hour VN. I use the term "casual reader" loosely this novel was freaking long and according to achievements only half made it through the question arc.

They should had made the tips in the main menu work like the mystery in episode 8.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

People use the manga because the manga is canon. It's the canon explanation. Even in the VN, Yasu is factually the culprit. That's the entire point behind the end of Episode 7 and the Yasu backstory. Yasu is Shannon and Kanon, you're being pedantic when you say "Yasu cannot be the culprit because Knox 1", when Shannon and Kanon ARE Yasu.

[Dr Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

People use the manga because the manga is canon. It's the canon explanation. Even in the VN, Yasu is factually the culprit. That's the entire point behind the end of Episode 7 and the Yasu backstory. Yasu is Shannon and Kanon, you're being pedantic when you say "Yasu cannot be the culprit because Knox 1", when Shannon and Kanon ARE Yasu.

I learned a new word!

No, I'm wasn't being pedantic. I wanted to have a conversation about the inconsistency of making a character introduced in book 7 the killer in book 1 when in book 5 they clearly state over and over that cannot be. Sadly the conversation was cut off at the head when Ellixer responded.

Now that I am aware I was expected to read the question arc again with the future knowledge of Yasu because she was always there as Shannon/Kanon. Killed the debate in one fell swipe. It makes sense they wanted this, because it mentioned several times that a great mystery should have you start over and figure out what you missed.

The other topic was Ange but that also was cut off at the head by pointing out I glazed over the "?????" ending.

I really have nothing else to talk about now. Too many red truths got me out the gate.

I am just happy I 100% this. But I'm done with VN for a long while.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

Yeah and the killer isn't introduced in EP 7, they're introduced in EP 1. So it still abides Knox anyway

[Dr Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

Yeah and the killer isn't introduced in EP 7, they're introduced in EP 1. So it still abides Knox anyway

Using the Shannon Kanon persona, yes.
Using Beatrice as a magical witch that Kinzo met in the 1940s Yes.
Using Yasu as the human grandchild of Beatrice from the 1940s... No.

Now that I'm really thinking about this, we should stop. I really liked this story, but the more information given to me to chew on is starting to show how convoluted this is story really was. I don't want to feel I wasted 200 hours on such writing.

So far I been told I should had reread half the story or a separate to "get it" because I as the reader should know Beatrice in book 1 is really Yasu from book 7 while the story itself tells me that breaks a rule in book 5, but really Kyrie and Rudolph did the murders, but in the end they were all books written by Battler who did but didn't have amnesia. Magic isn't real but future Ange makes a room of family for future Battler to see.

I dunno lets stop. The story was good.. We can agree on that.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

It doesn't break a rule. You're looking far too heavily at the name Yasu, and not realizing that that isn't the point of the rule. The rule is that the culprit has to be introduced early on in the story. They are. Shannon and Kanon are introduced early in the story. Their identity as Yasu does not have to be revealed early in the story, so long as you can figure out that Shannon/Kanon is the killer. It's not convoluted, I just think you're being too pedantic with what "The culprit must be introduced early on" means. Yasu is a character in Episode 1 because Yasu is Shannon and Kanon. I'm just trying to explain this.

[Dr Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Battler Ushiromiya:

It doesn't break a rule. You're looking far too heavily at the name Yasu, and not realizing that that isn't the point of the rule. The rule is that the culprit has to be introduced early on in the story. They are. Shannon and Kanon are introduced early in the story. Their identity as Yasu does not have to be revealed early in the story, so long as you can figure out that Shannon/Kanon is the killer. It's not convoluted, I just think you're being too pedantic with what "The culprit must be introduced early on" means. Yasu is a character in Episode 1 because Yasu is Shannon and Kanon. I'm just trying to explain this.

I concede the idea that this breaks Knox, But its the biggest loophole there is to Knox to misdirect the reader to think a character does not exist even though they have been following them since book 1 by hiding them under multiple generations of people that look identical and all having the same name, while concealing the true nature until book 7.

I knew there was a "person X" hiding, but the game red misdirects you by saying "There are not MORE than 18 people on the island" Then changed it to 17 when Kinzo was announced dead. But really there was only 16 people, so instead of +1 it's actually -1.

This was definitely a loophole since it would almost impossible for someone to solve these puzzles without the knowledge in book 7, even if someone did think that the mysterious woman giving Maria a umbrella was a actual psychical person that was also Shannon/Kanon they wouldn't know she had the ability to get the servants and family member's assistance. But since it's not entirely impossible it doesn't actually break the rules. I would like to meet someone who did figure it out though.

Now that I think about this Kasu thing I now understand the point of the love game in Book 6. I am also gonna just concede I am not good at subtly, this story was littered with hints I didn't pick up.

[O5]

It's almost like Yasu has two personas who both appear in all episodes, and the fact that Yasu is only the culprit in their own message bottle fanfics. IRL they don't kill anyone. In all of the chapters where they're the culprit you can come to that conclusion from the information given.

The whole meta world thing can't even really be summed up as just Battler trying to remember or any of that, it's a heavily packed and multilayered depiction of the idea of what it means for something to be the truth, the nature of objective reality and even the question of what consciousness actually is and by whose boundaries we can define them by. What makes the idea that the sensation of consciousness is attached to all sufficiently advanced living being any more objectively real than the idea that a cluster of consciousness "metaphorically" exists in the nothingness outside of our own perception of reality. Every action in the universe is equal, there is absolutely no difference between the cessation of brain activity in a dying being and say for example the physical process of a stuffed toy being torn to bits, aside from the objective differences in the physical processes occurring. The consciousness is nothing more than an illusion created by physical brain chemistry which has evolved to make human beings more evolutionarily viable. what we experience as a sensation of existing as some thought entity controlling a flesh machine is ridiculous. I mean even if I subconsciously perceive myself as real, I am like a movie playing in an empty cinema. Where are concepts stored, the ideas, events that have or will or might happen or the conceptual ideas of things never thought, it's all equally real, and I think this universal insignificance is beautiful. Every thing, every one, every thought, every idea, every process or idea of a process everthihng and even everything that isn't and the nothing that is and isn't and the lack of nothing, it's all real in a vast ocean of all-equalizing insignificance

excuse my ramblings I've only managed to sleep a total of 2 hours of the last 3 days, and i think I'm having a psychotic manic episode because I really feel powerful and the fact that I am infinitly experiencing the idea of the sensation of dying at every moment in one moment I perceive myself as twitching around existing multiplicaly just like I think every thought at once if theere is a god then I am god or god is as I said the idea of everything like I explained and there is only "god", the literal idea of anthing, all of existence itself that's pretty cool sucks that life is so horrible I am just another drop falling from the cealing to eventually hit the cealing again and rejoin the colective everything and nothing ♥♥♥♥ I was gonna force myself to do art yet now im here ranting about stuyff anyways if you're whole thing is you think Kanon and Erika are the same person and a cute biologically female tomboy and Shannon is unrelated you're objectivelly stuid disregard the ♥♥♥♥ I said about there being no objective reality I know where my priorities lie.

[Ellixer]

So are you saying this VN was expecting the reader to re-read the question arc to figure out the culprit after reading the entire story and learning about Yasu/Shannon/Kanon being one?
Heh, I see why there are internet videos and manga now, that's a lot to ask of a casual reader after reading a 200 hour VN. I use the term "casual reader" loosely this novel was freaking long and according to achievements only half made it through the question arc.

They should had made the tips in the main menu work like the mystery in episode 8.

If you haven't already figured it out by then, yeah the visual novel kind of expects people to reread Episode 1 to 4. This is sort of signalled by Battler being told to go through episode 1 to 4 again after he received all the clues in episode 5 (although there are even more clues in episode 6 and 7), whereupon he found the truth. I will concede that it is a lot to ask of a reader, which contributed to many people disliking the answer arcs. Whether you agree with it or not (and I have to say I at least partly disagree), the author made the artistic decision to leave the answer out entirely, as it may obscure the more relevant message of Episode 8 (making your own truth and moving on from tragedy and not placing too much value on objective facts over subjective truths) and devalue the efforts of people who actually put in the work to solve the mystery versus people who don't. This is why the manga is convenient. It's basically the solution sheet.

[Battler Ushiromiya]

It's not a loophole, it's part of the mystery. Mysteries can have people actually be someone else. You're supposed to figure out that Shannon and Kanon are the same person, and people do figure it out before Ep 7. There's more than enough clues to figure it out. There is obviously nothing wrong with not getting it, I didn't get it for a long time, but Umineko is a fair mystery. It's certainly not cheating by doing this, it's just making another mystery.
Like I don't want to disparage you for not getting this or anything. I don't want you to feel bad at all. I just think you're looking at it the wrong way.

[Dr Cthulhu]

Originally posted by うろつき:

It's almost like Yasu has two personas who both appear in all episodes, and the fact that Yasu is only the culprit in their own message bottle fanfics. IRL they don't kill anyone. In all of the chapters where they're the culprit you can come to that conclusion from the information given.

The whole meta world thing can't even really be summed up as just Battler trying to remember or any of that, it's a heavily packed and multilayered depiction of the idea of what it means for something to be the truth, the nature of objective reality and even the question of what consciousness actually is and by whose boundaries we can define them by. What makes the idea that the sensation of consciousness is attached to all sufficiently advanced living being any more objectively real than the idea that a cluster of consciousness "metaphorically" exists in the nothingness outside of our own perception of reality. Every action in the universe is equal, there is absolutely no difference between the cessation of brain activity in a dying being and say for example the physical process of a stuffed toy being torn to bits, aside from the objective differences in the physical processes occurring. The consciousness is nothing more than an illusion created by physical brain chemistry which has evolved to make human beings more evolutionarily viable. what we experience as a sensation of existing as some thought entity controlling a flesh machine is ridiculous. I mean even if I subconsciously perceive myself as real, I am like a movie playing in an empty cinema. Where are concepts stored, the ideas, events that have or will or might happen or the conceptual ideas of things never thought, it's all equally real, and I think this universal insignificance is beautiful. Every thing, every one, every thought, every idea, every process or idea of a process everthihng and even everything that isn't and the nothing that is and isn't and the lack of nothing, it's all real in a vast ocean of all-equalizing insignificance

This part I loved and picked up perfectly on and is probably why the Yasu thing blew past me. The idea of True Truth vs Personal Truth was amazing. How much is the Truth worth? How much are you willing to destroy your own life to attain such truth? Will you even believe the truth when it's finally presented in front of you? What is actual truth?

I absolutely loved that.