Is there a point to leveling weapon skill to 8.99?

[didymos1120]

Well, is there?

[weiss]

Originally posted by Seljdon:

Originally posted by didymos1120:

Really? He wasn't lying. He proved it. You're a piece of work.

He didn't prove anything. He never demonstrated a level 7 going to level 8 and then beyond. He also was using a different version of the game that I have. So it proved nothing.

the language which he uses dosnt matters. i can putt my game on japanese or whatever too (like setting steam to a different language) the game is the same.

[Heartstrings]

I clicked this thread out of interest. I leveled all of my weapons to 8.99 on the SNES, and again on the steam version. After reading about this level 1 stuff, I ran back and forth between Todo and the Ice Palace and did not see anything special.

No critical hit enhancements, no unique weapon swings, no damage enhancements, and you still need to swing once and hold the attack button to begin charging.

I'll test it in the mana fortress later while I finish leveling my magic to see if having the weapon leveled ignores defense, or is stronger against high defense enemies. Against Howlers, the spear was doing a consistant 206 damage.

I'm curious to know what exactly the video was meant to prove, also. Energy Ball gives a guaranteed critical hit for x amount of hits, depending on spell level, so the crazy damage that Randi was doing is just normal.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong, I'm just curious.

[keeperofcastlegreydusk]

Originally posted by jonaf88851:

The only way to get weapon skill xp past 8 is to have it equipped and get "bleed" xp from another character getting kills with a weapon they have below a certain level. I think it was 6.

A weapon that is leveled by a character to 5 or less (NOT 6, that's one level too high), can still give Wpn XP to the other characters, regardless of what level they are relative to the monster that was killed.

Wpn XP is calculated like this:

X(k) = 9 - L

Where X(k) is the number of XP awarded to the killer
And L is the current level of the weapon used by the killer. That's level as in the maximum level they can charge up to. NOT the level to which the weapon has been forged.

X(k) is divided by 2 and rounded down if the killer is a higher level than the target killed. It is further divided by 2 and rounded down to get X(n), the number of XP awarded to the non-killers. Their levels relative to the target do not matter.

To ensure that I could level all weapons except the sword to 8:99 in my first playthrough, I kept the Sword forged to Level 5 (Excalibur) and the Javelin was left at Level 1 where it starts (Pole Dart). I used the Javelin to level all weapons to 8:99 except the Sword and itself on all three characters, then forged the Javelin all the way to 9 (Valkyrian) and used the Sword to level it up to 8:99 on all characters. Finally, I forged the Sword to Level 8 (Dragon Buster), and leveled it up to 8:00 on all characters.

But I didn't Screenshot that before starting a new playthrough. Not that I know whether or not Screenshots can be uploaded here or not. xp

EDIT: Just checked, and yes they can. Silly me. So I Uploaded one.

[keeperofcastlegreydusk]

Originally posted by Seljdon:

Originally posted by Xerain:

Haven't level all weapons to 8:99 in the SNES version twice....

You can't claim to ahve completed the game if you haven't. I never found it to do anything, but yet, on my second completion of the game I couldn't have teh second file be incomplete compared to my other complete file so... ground weapons to 8:99 again.

Originally posted by didymos1120:

Well, is there?

In the remake you can not go above 8:00 for the weapons. Even if you have all 9 orbs for them all (save the sword). I've tried it and it's a no go. The only thing you can grind above 8:00 now is the magic.

Behold!

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1329885645

[Heartstrings]

That's a pretty good way to ensure all weapons on all three characters make it to 8.99. I primarily left each character with a primary weapon, and left the rest at level 1. Then spent hours circling the Forest of Seasons, killing stuff with a level 1 weapon while my allies hold a level 8 weapon.

I got the girl's weapons capped, the boy's are almost capped, but the sprite will have 1 weapon not totally maxed. Ah well.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1329817295

[keeperofcastlegreydusk]

Originally posted by Honey:

That's a pretty good way to ensure all weapons on all three characters make it to 8.99. I primarily left each character with a primary weapon, and left the rest at level 1. Then spent hours circling the Forest of Seasons, killing stuff with a level 1 weapon while my allies hold a level 8 weapon.

I got the girl's weapons capped, the boy's are almost capped, but the sprite will have 1 weapon not totally maxed. Ah well.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1329817295

Okay, I'm thinking this guy Seljdon is impossible to reason with. So I'm just gonna refer to him in the third person. :S

I was able to confirm for myself that weapons in the Remake can go to 8:99 except the Sword, as you were also able to. Good job, by the way. :)

But as for the things you expressed doubt about, such as Critical Hit enhancements, weapon swings and damage enhancements... I have no idea what that's about.

I have occasionally seen a character use the "animation" for the Level 1 charge attack as a basic attack. But that random event does NOT grant the damage bonus of a Level 1 charge attack. That I know of.

I'm starting a new playthrough, so will have a chance to test various things all over again. Can't really say anything more meaningful on this until I get a bit further ahead. :(

But in case you're interested, you can deliberate underforge any weapon you like, so that you can't level it up beyond a certain point, and use that weapon to give your allies Wpn XP.

Hopefully that last bit, at least, will help you in a new playthrough. If you want to do one... ^~^

[Heartstrings]

@Seljdon:
Correct, after 10 or so kills, it will go to level 2, but the other two characters will get about 4 points per kill at level 8. As long as the weapon is level 5 or below, weapon experience is shared with the other characters. At no point did I say the weapon remained level 1, however it is possible if you do not forge the weapon. The only troll here is you.

@keeperofcastlegreydusk:
If you attack an enemy who is laying down or knocked over, your weapon swing will have an animation very similar to a level 1 charged up attack, such as spinning the spear before a stab, or jump slashing with the sword. These "finishing attacks" can be used at any time in the game with any level of weapon and do not increase damage. They're purely for show.

[keeperofcastlegreydusk]

Originally posted by Honey:

@keeperofcastlegreydusk:
If you attack an enemy who is laying down or knocked over, your weapon swing will have an animation very similar to a level 1 charged up attack, such as spinning the spear before a stab, or jump slashing with the sword. These "finishing attacks" can be used at any time in the game with any level of weapon and do not increase damage. They're purely for show.

Aha. So it's when a target is knocked-down that the Level 1 animation instance occurs, not a random event. I think that was a feature of the original game, too, just didn't think of that.

I have to go and do a couple of things before going off to bed, but thanks for your response. You are nice to talk to, if I may say so. ^_^'

[keeperofcastlegreydusk]

Originally posted by didymos1120:

Well, is there?

I forgot to mention this, but there is a special hidden reason to level up weapons with Randi at least.

All characters get to charge weapons higher as they level them up, that's obvious enough. But Randi gets a special damage multiplier based on Wpn Levels and Wpn XP for all weapons he has leveled up, when Mana Magic is cast on him.

Here's how the bonus is calculated:

B = int(X/100) + int(Y/8)

where X = total XP Randi has on all weapons
and Y = total Levels Randi has on all weapons
and int means to round down the result in each set of parentheses, before addition.

Maximum achievable bonus is 14, which adds 700% to the striker's Attack Power, before defence is subtracted.

You can get the max bonus by having all weapons at (Weapon Level:Weapon XP) 7:99, or all weapons except sword at 8:99, and sword at 8:00.

[Heartstrings]

Originally posted by keeperofcastlegreydusk:

Originally posted by didymos1120:

Well, is there?

I forgot to mention this, but there is a special hidden reason to level up weapons with Randi at least.

All characters get to charge weapons higher as they level them up, that's obvious enough. But Randi gets a special damage multiplier based on Wpn Levels and Wpn XP, when Mana Magic is cast on him, for all weapons he has leveled up.

Here's how the bonus is calculated:

B = int(X/100) + int(Y/8)

where X = total XP Randi has on all weapons
and Y = total Levels Randi has on all weapons
and int means to round down the result in each set of parentheses, before addition.

Maximum achievable bonus is 14, which makes for a 700% multiplier to attack power, before defence is subtracted.

You can get the max bonus by having all weapons at (Weapon Level:Weapon XP) 7:99, or all weapons except sword at 8:99, and sword at 8:00.

That's interesting, thanks for sharing!

Is this only for the remake? Or did this exist on the SNES as well?

I wonder what the damage formula looks like while under the effects of Mana Magic. Against the Mana Beast, regular hits are around 550, but when under the effect of Moon Energy, every hit is 999 (which is no fun when he only has 9990HP.)

[keeperofcastlegreydusk]

Originally posted by Honey:

That's interesting, thanks for sharing!

Is this only for the remake? Or did this exist on the SNES as well?

I wonder what the damage formula looks like while under the effects of Mana Magic. Against the Mana Beast, regular hits are around 550, but when under the effect of Moon Energy, every hit is 999 (which is no fun when he only has 9990HP.)

Hi, just came back and saw your response. :)

The only reason I know things like this is because a few speedrunners/hobbyist hackers looked into the game code. They talked about it on websites GameFAQs and TASVideos.

According to them (and I did check the original game to see if their theories on the damage formula/Mana Magic Bonus/Wpn XP formula/ etc, were at least close to being correct), Mana Magic giving a damage multiplier to Randi does exist in the Original.

It's the multiplier on top of the Mana Sword's base attack power of 127, that punches through the Mana Beast's armor. In the original, its Defence score was 450 and its Evade score was 99. I'm pretty sure they're both the same here. Your figures of 550ish for a non-critical and 999 for a critical under Moon Energy are what I got too, on both playthroughs with the Remake.

If you like, I can either link you to the two forums where the damage formula is discussed for the original game, type it out in another Comment, or both. Which would you prefer?

[Heartstrings]

Originally posted by keeperofcastlegreydusk:

Originally posted by Honey:

That's interesting, thanks for sharing!

Is this only for the remake? Or did this exist on the SNES as well?

I wonder what the damage formula looks like while under the effects of Mana Magic. Against the Mana Beast, regular hits are around 550, but when under the effect of Moon Energy, every hit is 999 (which is no fun when he only has 9990HP.)

Hi, just came back and saw your response. :)

The only reason I know things like this is because a few speedrunners/hobbyist hackers looked into the game code. They talked about it on websites GameFAQs and TASVideos.

According to them (and I did check the original game to see if their theories on the damage formula/Mana Magic Bonus/Wpn XP formula/ etc, were at least close to being correct), Mana Magic giving a damage multiplier to Randi does exist in the Original.

It's the multiplier on top of the Mana Sword's base attack power of 127, that punches through the Mana Beast's armor. In the original, its Defence score was 450 and its Evade score was 99. I'm pretty sure they're both the same here. Your figures of 550ish for a non-critical and 999 for a critical under Moon Energy are what I got too, on both playthroughs with the Remake.

If you like, I can either link you to the two forums where the damage formula is discussed for the original game, type it out in another Comment, or both. Which would you prefer?

Hey! A link would be fine, thanks. ^^ Just curious about the damage formula is all.

I just booted up my SNES file that I glitched a ninth sword orb for, compliments of snow wasteland Neko, and saw that the weapon damage on Primm is 212. The other weapons are about 80 less damage-wise.

I haven't gone through the mana fortress yet to see what would happen if Mana Magic were cast on a level 9 sword. I know getting a tenth orb would bring it back to Rusty Sword, so I'm assuming Mana Magic would bring it back to a level 1 sword, making the bonuses from Mana Magic worthless.

Considering the Mana Beast would have the same defense, and Moon Energy already caps damage at 999, I'm thinking if it DID boost the damage, it would just boost normal hits to around 750 or so.

On an unrelated note, I hope that this game is built upon... DLC for more areas or bosses, a hard mode difficulty, something of the sort. Last time I played, I beat the Mana Beast as Primm with the lance (no sword) just to listen to the music. I wonder if a no orbs run would make an interesting challenge.

[keeperofcastlegreydusk]

Originally posted by Honey:

Hey! A link would be fine, thanks. ^^ Just curious about the damage formula is all.

I just booted up my SNES file that I glitched a ninth sword orb for, compliments of snow wasteland Neko, and saw that the weapon damage on Primm is 212. The other weapons are about 80 less damage-wise.

I haven't gone through the mana fortress yet to see what would happen if Mana Magic were cast on a level 9 sword. I know getting a tenth orb would bring it back to Rusty Sword, so I'm assuming Mana Magic would bring it back to a level 1 sword, making the bonuses from Mana Magic worthless.

Considering the Mana Beast would have the same defense, and Moon Energy already caps damage at 999, I'm thinking if it DID boost the damage, it would just boost normal hits to around 750 or so.

On an unrelated note, I hope that this game is built upon... DLC for more areas or bosses, a hard mode difficulty, something of the sort. Last time I played, I beat the Mana Beast as Primm with the lance (no sword) just to listen to the music. I wonder if a no orbs run would make an interesting challenge.

Hi again, I thought you might've left the discussion for the time being. :)

Here are the two links I used to find out more about the game than I could have alone. The second link goes directly to the page with the statement by forum-user Regrs, about what he thinks the damage formula is. Other info he and others talk about lies on the other pages in that thread:

http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=425&start=437

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/588646-secret-of-mana/69150657?page=20

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On the first link, I have checked the damage formula for weapons and found it to be correct except for two details. On the line that says:

----- IF hit rate is greater than Random x 101,
----- THEN Power = (Mana Power squared + Force) x (1 + Random/16),
----- OTHERWISE Power = Hit rate x Force/100

I suspect that the divisor of 16 used on the (1 + Random/16) part should be 32. My reasoning is that a divisor of 16 gives a greater random variance to damage than what I have seen calculated so far, in the numbers that bounce over the monsters I struck. Whereas using a divisor of 32 is observably correct in all previous tests. Further testing is necessary on my part to see if that correction holds true in more instances.

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EDIT: Changing the divisor to 32 did NOT make the formula 100% correct, like I'd hoped. It made the random variance to damage a smaller range than I got, at higher numbers of Mana Power and/or Force.

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Plus, on that first link again: Before the physical damage formula is listed, there is a line that reads: "These are the physical damage formulas. In these formulas, "Random" means a random number between 0 and 1. Force, attack power and defense power can't be greater than 999."

What I THINK he means is that an 8-bit number from 0 to 255 is pseudorandomly determined, and expressed as a fraction of 256. Giving a floating-point number from 0 to .99609375, or written another way, 99609375 x 10^-8. Might wanna check on your end to confirm that, as I will. But so far, in the Original at least, that's been observably correct for me when calculating expected weapon damage.

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However, on that same first link, I have also briefly tested the damage formula for magic, and although further testing will help to confirm, I suspect that either I'm not applying it correctly, or it's not even close.

The second link only has Regrs's statement on how weapon damage is calculated, assuming you don't miss.

---------------

In the Original, casting Mana Magic when Randi has the Mana Sword already equipped will only grant the Mana Magic Bonus to damage calculation, and do nothing else. However, if he has any other weapon equipped, including the Sword in any of its other forms (Excalibur, Rusty Sword, Herald, whatever), the spell both grants the Bonus and forcefully equips Randi with the Mana Sword, which temporarily makes his base Attack score 127 + whatever his Strength score is. Strength + Weapon Power is how Attack is normally calculated for ALL characters, as listed in the Stats menu.

After the spell wears off, if Randi was previously equipped with the Sword in a previous form, or any other weapon, he gets reequipped with that previous weapon until you cast the spell again. Otherwise, he just has the Mana Sword still, and the Bonus is taken out until the spell is reapplied.

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Your unrelated note got me intrigued, by the way. I would really like to see multiple difficulty settings, as well as bonus areas/monsters. In all honesty, there are many things about the game that I think could be added or improved, but that's just my own opinion for the most part. xp

Sorry, I'd better leave it there, since you didn't ask for that much commentary. Damn... :(

[keeperofcastlegreydusk]

Originally posted by Honey:

On an unrelated note, I hope that this game is built upon... DLC for more areas or bosses, a hard mode difficulty, something of the sort. Last time I played, I beat the Mana Beast as Primm with the lance (no sword) just to listen to the music. I wonder if a no orbs run would make an interesting challenge.

Weeell... oookay. One more:

I didn't think to try a No-Orbs run on the Remake. However, I have been trying a No-Magic-Except-Crystal-Orb run on it, and only ran into two places where I had any real difficulty. So far, anyway. Currently at the Grand Palace trying to stop the Empire from doing its thing.

Alright, 'nuff said for now, definitely. <whew>

[Burakki]

You should have asked your question differently at the beginning, "how is it possible to get with ALL 3 Charakters the max. weapon level". I do not know right now, because underforge works only with 1-2 characters.