can we remove the weapon lag system?

[RedArrow]

Hi, I love this game but The weapon lag system feels absolutely clunky and is making me regret buying this game. It just swings so slow and feels so unrealistic. When it hits, its like making a blunt contact instead of feeling like an actual sword. Is there a way to at least add the option to turn off the weapon lag?

I'm sure the intention is to make it more realistic and prevent unrealistic swinging, but this weapon lag is just too over the top and its killing the experience!

[unityraptor]

Hey, there's no more weapon lag system since the game has been migrated to physics.

Is it a specific weapon or all weapons you have issue with ?

[RedArrow]

well, all the weapons don't swing as fast as my controller. Is that by design? more often than it it feels like im attacking with a blunt stick due to the low speed of swing

[unityraptor]

it's physic so yes this is by design. smaller weapon (daggers) will easily follow your controller, but using a spear one handed for exemple induce physic lag (weapon inertia)

[RedArrow]

yea this is what I'm talking about. first of all, inertia doesn't mean speed. A heavier weapon has more intertia ( meaning it takes more force to stop or change direction), but it doesn't mean it can't be swung fast. A heavy weapon could be swung fast, and just as fast as a lighter sword if that person wielding it is strong enough, like a major league baseball player swinging a bat at a high speed.

The modeling of the current system however, assumes we have limited strength and that the all heavy weapons could only be swung at a max speed. At it's fastest, it feels quite slow and clunky, It doesn't feel heavy either. Because it moves slowly, it doesn't carry enough momentum to feel like it actually does enough hit or damage- the experience often feels like a blunt rod or stick traveling at half speed which just doesn't feel very satisfying. Perhaps there could be an option to adjust the preferences for those who actually want a different and better experience? At least this way it doesn't change the way things are right now but gives an option for others who want a less clunky experience

[unityraptor]

Originally posted by RedArrow:

yea this is what I'm talking about. first of all, inertia doesn't mean speed. A heavier weapon has more intertia ( meaning it takes more force to stop or change direction), but it doesn't mean it can't be swung fast. A heavy weapon could be swung fast, and just as fast as a lighter sword if that person wielding it is strong enough, like a major league baseball player swinging a bat at a high speed.

The modeling of the current system however, assumes we have limited strength and that the all heavy weapons could only be swung at a max speed. At it's fastest, it feels quite slow and clunky, It doesn't feel heavy either. Because it moves slowly, it doesn't carry enough momentum to feel like it actually does enough hit or damage- the experience often feels like a blunt rod or stick traveling at half speed which just doesn't feel very satisfying. Perhaps there could be an option to adjust the preferences for those who actually want a different and better experience? At least this way it doesn't change the way things are right now but gives an option for others who want a less clunky experience

Actual params (joint forces) are pushed to the max to ensure phsyics stability. Pushing it further will create jittering

[RedArrow]

I'm just asking if there can be an option where we could swing the sword and it matches our controller, like for example Raw Data has it for their ninja character. Swords in ZomDay and Aeon also offer this similar experience, so its possible. At least this way there is an option for both. For that matter, it uses a different model which doesn't you to be limited by the current one.

[Trogzilla]

I came to the discussions today to say the exact same thing. I didn't see that you'd posted about it earlier until now lol. The number of people who would buy this game after trying the demo would probably double with an option like this.

[RedArrow]

Glad I'm not the only one feeling this. I'm sure there are lots of other players who would say the same thing but are just not mentioning it. I don't even regularly voice out unless something really bothers me. This is the only thing about the game that breaks it for me. Otherwise all else is good

[Snootch]

Originally posted by RedArrow:

I'm just asking if there can be an option where we could swing the sword and it matches our controller, like for example Raw Data has it for their ninja character. Swords in ZomDay and Aeon also offer this similar experience, so its possible. At least this way there is an option for both. For that matter, it uses a different model which doesn't you to be limited by the current one.

Yeah but those games you can't shove the blade into their head, there are actual physics in the game. Go play some blade and sorcery and you will experience the same thing. It's meant to be that way and it doesn't feel terrible at all. You talk about swinging an actual weapon around really fast, but I doubt you've ever handled one at all. They have weight to them and you wouldn't be doing the type of actions you intended with a light plastic controller.

The physics lag is to represent the 'weight' of the weapon, adding to it's difficulty in use. Making hits feel meaty. There is no real comparison to Zomday and this, the reason Zomdays weapons work that way is because it's meant to be a fast past arcade shooter/melee. This game you have to time your moves and attacks/blocks. It's weird how people complain about a feature that introduces some level of immersion aside them from weilding a huge PVC/Metal replica of whatever they are holding.

You could go as far as to mod blade and sorcery to remove the weight of weapons, but that just kills the game entirely, but it's also the Devs choice whether or not they want mods at all.

[XOskeletal]

I don't often play Blade & Sorcery but when I do, I play vanilla, the way the dev pictured it.

[RedArrow]

Originally posted by Snootch:

Yeah but those games you can't shove the blade into their head, there are actual physics in the game. Go play some blade and sorcery and you will experience the same thing. It's meant to be that way and it doesn't feel terrible at all. You talk about swinging an actual weapon around really fast, but I doubt you've ever handled one at all. They have weight to them and you wouldn't be doing the type of actions you intended with a light plastic controller.

The physics lag is to represent the 'weight' of the weapon, adding to it's difficulty in use. Making hits feel meaty. There is no real comparison to Zomday and this, the reason Zomdays weapons work that way is because it's meant to be a fast past arcade shooter/melee. This game you have to time your moves and attacks/blocks. It's weird how people complain about a feature that introduces some level of immersion aside them from weilding a huge PVC/Metal replica of whatever they are holding.

You could go as far as to mod blade and sorcery to remove the weight of weapons, but that just kills the game entirely, but it's also the Devs choice whether or not they want mods at all.

Listen up doofus, you're about to get destroyed. You think I haven't handled an actual weapon? you can take this image and shove it as proof.

https://gyazo.com/d81c6ebc2f43be076e23f8195c37506f

I'm have actually trained and I know what I'm talking about.

There are many things that are wrong with what you pointed out.

"The physics lag is to represent the 'weight of the weapon"

1. Sure, I get it, but the current design doesn't do a good job of it. Like I said before, the poor design assumes every player has an equal, limited strength and that no matter how strong you are, you cannot swing the weapon faster than a determined speed. I'm sure a 7 foot 250 lb can swing a weapon much much faster than a 5'5. 135 lb man due to their size and strength difference alone.
   
2. As someone trained in weapons I can tell you that technique makes a difference.
   The travel distance, the flick of your wrist, and the way you use your hips all can make a big difference between a slow and a fast swing. A smaller man with excellent technique can swing a sword much faster than a bigger man with poor technique
   
3. look at baseball players and kendo practitioners. They are all trained to be able to swing a heavy object fast. go look at youtube videos and tell me their speed should be limited like it does in the game because of 'physics lag'
   
4. With a longer swing distance, weapons swing can actually increase in speed because they have the distance to do so. Imagine a hammer throw athlete that generates a vast amount of velocity even with a really heavy ball just by spinning.

But ANYWAYS, what does all this mean? it doesn't mean much because the way things are designed right now, no matter how strong or how good of a technique you have, there's always just some unnatural universal force preventing your weapon from moving faster. And to be honest, it is really not a satisfying speed.

From my perspective, the 'immersion' doesn't feel so immersive because I know I can swing a weapon much faster than the game allows me to.

Now, instead of telling you things from an analytical martial artist, I'm going to tell you things from a perspective a designer. If you have half a brain you'd listen.

1. If you think it doesn't feel terrible, then good for you, I can't argue that, but if I think it does feel terrible, shouldn't you give me some credit too? After all, what I feel is what I feel. The experience I want is different from your's, just as well as the experience you like is different from mine, neither is correct nor incorrect. I'm voicing the experience I feel as a player. While the dev has the intention in mind, it is the players who play it.
   
2. The game was designed with a certain intent of realism, however, with VR it is just difficult due to the gap between the weight of the controller versus the actual weight of the weapon. All the lag does is increases that gap between real and virtual. It's not a problem that can be easily solved but I will say if the controllers matched the game, it wouldn't be wrong either since it matches your body's expectations.
   
3. If not me, there was literally another user who specifically came on to this forum to write about the EXACT same issue. He was LITERALLY WILLING TO PAY for the game if the dev was able to let the weapons swing faster. Argue that however you want, just know, there was money lost.
   Conveniently, that guy mentioned he also trained in weapons too. Now you have two people, both trained in weapons, making the same suggestion. However, according to you, it seems we just don't know what we are talking about at all.
   
4. Consider the 1% rule of the internet, for every 1% that was willing to make a contribution via posting a discussion, there were probably a 99% of other users of which some might have felt the same thing, but didn't bother voicing it.
   
5. I'm sure if we did remove this weapon lag, many people, including you would complain. I can't argue what you like is bad because that's how you feel, Afterwards, I suggested not to remove, but provide an ALTERNATIVE to players who would like this- Let's make that clear. This means it'd capture the other market. In this case, everyone wins.
   
   
   

   Originally posted by XOskeletal:

   I don't often play Blade & Sorcery but when I do, I play vanilla, the way the dev pictured it.

   
   
6. Mods are great because they allow people to basically build content for the developers which makes this game more appealing to different markets, converting more and more players who want different sorts of experience. Building a product and not allowing people to contribute is like creating a Google Play Store, or a smartphone and saying 'we designed it this way, you must use it this way. you cannot add things to it because it'd be wrong, or not the way we intended it'. For that matter, you should never just do what you want or have any different thoughts from the way things were intended. If you like hawaiian pizza, I got bad news. You should never like pineapple on pizza because that's not the way the Italian creators pictured it.

Glad you mentioned blade and sorcery. I cant believe I actually refunded that game for this because it had less content. But now that you mentioned you can actually mod it, I'm going to wait for the next sale and can't wait until I can swing the weapons the way I want to.

[XOskeletal]

The dev is making this game on his own in his spare time outside of his real world job and obligations.
It's the game he wanted in VR that doesn't exist.
He has stated before that he may freely release the code when he is done with ToG so people can make what they want of it. Maybe you can start to practice code after your done playing with your toys for when that day comes.

[unityraptor]

Hey all,

First no need to argue about this. Everyone can give his/her opinion but no point in calling people names.

@redarrow / Peasant Slayer : as said above, there's no coded lag, it's the physic engine and actual params of joints/forces. It's not a question of me wanting to change them or not. it's not a mod question too, it's just that pushing those params to match what you're asking creates physics instability / jittering and it's not possible. In the actual beta, i've pushed them a little more but this will be the max i can do. Should be released soon

[RedArrow]

Originally posted by XOskeletal:

The dev is making this game on his own in his spare time outside of his real world job and obligations.
It's the game he wanted in VR that doesn't exist.
He has stated before that he may freely release the code when he is done with ToG so people can make what they want of it. Maybe you can start to practice code after your done playing with your toys for when that day comes.

Oh please, do I need to prove that I know how to code too?

Originally posted by unityraptor:

Hey all,

First no need to argue about this. Everyone can give his/her opinion but no point in calling people names.

@redarrow / Peasant Slayer : as said above, there's no coded lag, it's the physic engine and actual params of joints/forces. It's not a question of me wanting to change them or not. it's not a mod question too, it's just that pushing those params to match what you're asking creates physics instability / jittering and it's not possible. In the actual beta, i've pushed them a little more but this will be the max i can do. Should be released soon

That's fine, I'll take your answer for it. I know what it's like for one dev to be working on this whole thing, it is a lot of work. I wonder though, blade and sorcery has the same physics but they can do that with a mod. maybe some day it can work too

[XOskeletal]

"Oh please, do I need to prove that I know how to code too?"

I don't really care what you can or can't do. I was passing on information.

Telling the dev he has half a brain, his design is poor and calling people names that actually like the design is immature. Maybe you can practice growing up.