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i really felt something in RtR for the first time and that was
that whole having the caravan next to a distant dungeon
clearing it and then looting it over several trips.
that was a distinct new experience for me that i really enjoyed
is that "extraction"?
It's like "extraction shooter "... they get that label, and if you remove the guns that's what extraction is.
Going some place dangerous for the specific purpose of getting treasures to sell and upgrade your gear as well as restock/stockpile other things (maybe even finding a gear upgrade in a run itself). You "extract" various things from a dangerous location and are only safe once you get back to your base (here it's your camp or a town). Until you make it to the safe place you are in danger of losing what you got.
Extraction games are, for example, Dark and Darker, Tarkov, Quasimorph or Sulfur (using these last two to show they aren't all multiplayer and don't all follow the exact same recipe). Normally they aren't as "open world" (if you ignore the tiles) as Stoneshard. Some often also include a hunger system and some even push it farther with a thirst system. All of them have healing items which you need to take in from the outside (or get lucky and find during a run) and which you need to be careful when using "Should I use this now or save it for later". If things get too dicey and you have stuff already, you can "extract" (escape) with what you already have instead of risk dying and losing it.
Now, normally these games have a "lose all items on death" (which is why in extraction games you are extracting the loot just as much as you are extracting your own gear), which stoneshard admitedly doesn't have unless you play permadeath (when you die on normal difficulty you just lose your progress).
Also, you know, more in response to Pixel Peeper, people didn't know what they meant or why games should be called that when any tags/genres first came out... No idea why the idea of the "extraction" tag on steam seems so weird when "extraction" games are a pretty well known genre (a quick google search will show that it is also quite a popular genre, maybe even converting you into one of the many fans of the genre!)...
EDIT: Extraction games also usually provide a stash system in which you can put stuff you looted in for later runs, stockpile meds, food, drinks, ammunition (here it would be arrows and bolts), consumables (here it would be traps, smokes, etc...) to use for future runs, all of which you were able to obtain through successful extraction (usually in the form of valuables so you can get money to buy the previously mentioned things). You are not capable of just holding everything in one "inventory" and even stash space is limited to some degree (often accompanied by a form of inventory tetris).
Also, again, I am not saying that Stoneshard fits that label perfectly, i'd say it might be more adjacent to it, but as someone who's played quite a few extraction games, Stoneshard has scratched that itch quite a bit, even if in a slightly different way.
PS: What I wrote is in no way a perfect explanation of what the "extraction" genre is. I just shot out this answer while I had time and never tried to express what the genre was before (since I assumed most people knew about it, but you know what they say about assuming)
extraction is like escape from tarkov or any of those type of games.
Multiplayer pretty much assumes real-time. Of course, there are exceptions for genres likes HOMM3, but overall, if you talk «RPG», then real-time is mandatory.
Therefore, Stoneshard is not the game at all, what you wanted. It's turn-based.
I'm not asking stoneshard to be something it isn't, and extraction does NOT assume "multiplayer".
Look up the examples I gave of Quasimorph and Sulfur. The last of which is an extraction shooter and "real-time". Quasimorph is ALSO turn based yet is labeled extraction shooter.
Multiplayer is not assumed in extraction games, it's just that quite a few are. A sort of "all bowls are containers but not all containers are bowls". Also pretty sure that RPG doesn't mean "real-time"... a lot of RPG aren't real time at all. Also, the source of RPG is D&D, and i'm pretty sure that isn't "real-time" either since players can take all the time they want to take an action (and it also is technically multiplayer). Multiplayer doesn't assume "real time" either. Lot's of turn based games are multiplayer (Civilization is a good example).
I'm not asking for the game to be something different, I'm expressing that steam needs to provide the "extraction" tag without it being attached to "shooter" (as the only tag availble is "Extraction shooter").
I've played Stoneshard a fair bit (over a hundred hours), I know it's turn based, that doesn't exclude it from having OTHER ADDITIONAL tags. A game isn't just one thing, a game can be turn based and also RPG, fantasy, sci-fi, etc...
Heck, some people play Tarkov with a single player mod (or something along those lines). It's still an extraction shooter as the only thing that changed is that it isn't multiplayer anymore. Just like Battlefied has multiplayer but it also has a singleplayer campaign (as well as bots only games), it doesn't NEED to be multiplayer to be what it is.
EDIT: I'm not sure, but I think maybe you responded to the wrong post
If you now say sessionless is also not mandatory, does that mean Stalker also extraction? Turns out, many games are extraction then? Skyrim? Fallout?
I did admit that Stoneshard may be be more extraction "adjacent" due the more open world aspect (again, ignoring the tiles), which means it isn't "session based" as you put it
Funny you mention stalker because tarkov is based/inspired on Stalker. People call Stalker the "father" of extraction shooters, so yes, Stalker could be considered extraction shooter, or at least extremely close (more of a precursor I guess)
Skyrim and Fallout have a quasi-infinite inventory... You also don't "extract" much from anything in those. Sure there are some valuables here and there, but the main point is not "extraction". You also don't really lose anything when you die apart from some progress (which is similar to Stoneshard).
I did write a rather long (opinion of course) explanation on what extraction was kind of like and if you read it well you'll see that Skyrim and Fallout don't fit well. I think maybe you didn't read that or maybe didn't see it and so missed it.
But I DO get where you're coming from, some distinctions can be a very thin line.
EDIT: Also it's not fair to say that something is better than Tarkov, because a lot of games are better than tarkov, doesn't mean they can't share similarities (sorry tarkov fans. It's not a bad game though). Being better doesn't change a game's genre.
Also I might agree that a LOT of extraction games are session based, but I don't feel like that is necessarily a must... Again, see Stalker, and again, see me saying that that was kind of a reason why Stoneshard might be more "extraction adjacent" than fully "extraction"
Oh hey, yet another tag steam could add: "Extraction adjacent". Steam added so many tags for 18+ games, so why not this (i'm barely even joking here)
Lol Zero Sievert isn't Multiplayer so is Night Raider. Both are modern Extraction Shooters, the concept been around in older games as well but not as expansive as it is today.
You don't need Multiplayer either if the game is Good.
I didn't want to make a huge list of single player Extraction shooters in my already long post haha. There's also Witchfire, which is pretty good, but the "loot" is more Souls-like than extraction-like i'd say.
OH hey, "extraction-like" would be another tag. If there "souls-like" why not "extraction-like"
But who decides what's «like» enough to be considered extraction-like? You said that in extraction «main point is not "extraction"» – meaning what, inventory?
I do love Tarkov inventory, but how can you be so sure everyone associates Tarkov with just inventory? After all, it's called extraction. Might as well called this «Tetris-inventory» or something. As for Tetris-inventory, both Stoneshard and Tarkov, and also Diablo and many others – they all fit pretty well for this definition.
Steam really could use a few more tags for games.
Like I said, it's not just ONE thing, it's a combination of things. Extraction isn't just "inventory" based, otherwise it would be labeled as "inventory management" or something along those lines. I didn't associate Tarkov with just the "inventory", as there's more to it and I'd bet that anyone who's played Extraction shooters like Tarkov and games like Fallout would be able to feel that there is a difference, even if that difference isn't that easy to simplify into singular terms.
It's the entire looting experience that is different, the inventory only being one part of it. And the looting experience isn't the only aspect of the "extraction" genre (but it IS a major part of it). That looting part is something I feel, at least partially, from Stoneshard (in a different way to when I played games like skyrim, Mass effect, World of Warcraft, etc... and more akin to Extraction games, which is why I mentioned "Extraction-like").
Also Witchfire (check it out, it's pretty good) is considered to be an "extraction shooter" by some (as well as "souls-like") but it doesn't have inventory tetris (or not yet at least as it is still in early access). It's funny how i'm convinced people would call it "extraction-like" if the tag was available on steam
You seem to be trying to boil a lot of this down to a single concept/thing each time but it's more nuanced (or so I think, again, opinion).
To your "who decides" point: it's like who decides what "Souls-like" is, the gamers who play it and get the feeling "it's like a souls game but not a souls game" and so the "souls like" tag is born. There isn't a defining authority, it just enters the "culture" as people start using it, arguing over if a game IS or ISN'T souls-like. It would be pretty much the same for if a game is or isn't "extraction-like"
EDIT: Eventhough Souls-like is now a pretty well established tag/genre, you can still often see people arguing over whether a game is souls-like or not, sometimes the arguments getting pretty heated with people saying to stop mis-using "souls-like". The "who decides what is or isn't souls like" is still very much an issue even for this well established genre/tag, doesn't stop it from existing though
I could say on some "souls-like" fan forum that Stoneshard is souls-like and I'm sure people would debate for AND against that branding RE-EDIT: looked it up and there have been and still ARE people online debating whether this game is souls-like or not haha. Maybe we need "souls-like-like"
I'm not sure I like how vague the label is. "Going inside of places to get stuff" matches a huge number of games, and "until you get to a save point, you can lose everything" does, too.
And probably more relevant is that I don't think it applies to Stoneshard. Most dungeons hold no danger once cleared. Any player can park their caravan right next to the dungeon, or bring a Bedroll and drop it on the floor outside the dungeon so they can save.
Short of some particular dungeon/contract conditions (like the grimoire that quickly erodes your body as long as you're in the dungeon), there is no risk of losing anything once the dungeon is cleared.
However...
But if you are actively looking for that feeling (i.e. being able to lose everything you just looted until you're back at camp)... Stoneshard can provide that feeling. Pick contracts that involve risk when leaving dungeons. Park your caravan far from the dungeon. Don't bring a Bedroll.
There's nothing preventing you from enjoying that part of the game if you want. You'll have to deliberately ignore available safeguards, but you can in fact do it.
I fully get that and also thought the same. At first that is.
-However Dark and Darker, and other extraction games for that matter, also lack any danger (apart from a few exceptions like you pointed out for Stoneshard too) once you clear the instance (whether of mobs or players, and if you moded them, if possible, in some way to play solo then minus the other players to begin with). Well, that is, apart from the limited time one can spend in a zone, with the end timer leading to player death usually (though one could very loosely argue that Stoneshard has that with timed contracts where you fail if you take too long, though you don't DIE for failing them and have quite some time too)...
In dark and darker you can waltz around the dungeon without any real danger once you've killed everything in it (apart from some traps... though, if I remember correctly, you can also disarm them all as rogue). Doesn't mean the game isn't "extraction" too. That's why I said it was a rather fine line between what is and isn't Extraction and why I pointed towards Stoneshard maybe being more "extraction-like", or hell, "extraction-lite" (like Roguelite is to Roguelike games).
Tarkov is different in that aspect because I do believe that scavs (the AI) respawn in some way, though someone correct me if I'm wrong or if it changed.
-In those extraction games (some of them at least) you can also get quests, missions, etc... Similar to contracts in Stoneshard if you will (contracts in Stoneshard are basically quests).
-When you look at how most extraction games have it, they are basically the same as "park their caravan right next to the dungeon" since most of them aren't "open world". They, usually, immediately start you in the equivalent of Stoneshard dungeons (so pretty much the same as having your caravan parked next to a dungeon since doing so nearly eliminates all chances of danger after leaving the dungeon). What makes Stoneshard a little different from your average Extraction game would be the fact that the world is open (ignoring moving between tiles of course).
-All these different things shouldn't be kept apart, like "Going inside of places to get stuff" and "until you get to a save point, you can lose everything" (amongst a few others) shouldn't be separated, it's ALL (or at least most) of these things combined that make it "extraction", at least to some degree.
All in all the Extraction genre does have a definition and I am not saying, again, that Stoneshard is 100% extraction. Something being extraction-like or extraction-lite means that some aspects of the extraction genre are missing from it, just like how it is for the souls-like and Roguelite genres. They aren't 100% souls or roguelike games. Also, just like how a game being just "hard" doesn't necessarily make it "souls-like"
That's why a lot of games might seem to fit in the "Extraction" genre itself, but since the Extraction genre is more than just "go to place X, loot Y and Z, leave" and instead a combination of multiple different factors, not all games fit in the genre... And since "Extraction-like" doesn't seem, as far as I know, to be a widely used term (or used at all for that matter), defining what is or isn't Extraction-like isn't really up to me to fully decide and, in the end, will likely be different from what I said. Would be nice if more people talked about this though.
EDIT: in addition to your last points, that's actually (if I remember) where the Tarkov creators got the idea: Stalker but played in hardcore, where actually losing is a very real possibility instead of just losing progress (in tarkov that's losing all your gear you went in with, so kind of like a perma death really). That's why Stoneshard Permadeath MIGHT bring it even closer to the extraction (or Extraction-like) tag, but again, I'm sure that can also be debated
RE-EDIT: Boy that was long wasn't it! Sorry for the essay and if you read it all then props to you, whoever read this o7