Opinions sought on final points - spear build

[dyson_ruin]

Hey all. Trying out a dodgey spear build and have 10 AP and 3 SP left. Took 1 pt for dexterity early on and I really enjoy opening fights with a semi-guaranteed ranged hit. Also took 1 pt for survival which is necessary for my mental health to make sure I dont pull 5 enemies at once in dungeons. Lastly I took 1 pt in pyro which was a mistake and I am counting it as open now to respec (assuming a mod exists).

I am split between two ways of spending the remaining pts. Plan one is to drop 4 pts into spears to finish that tree primarily for crit chance/damage, then another pt in athletics for peak performance, and finally the last 5 into warfare to go down the left side for finisher. The ability to get more range and reset cooldowns with finisher seems insane in case I ever get in a prolonged knife-fight in a phone booth situation.

This does not leave points for brace for impact/battle forged in armored combat though and people seem to highly value those. So option two would be to forgo wounding spearhead and regroup in spears to pick up the armored combat skills already mentioned. I hesitate to do this though because I am already getting 45-50ish pct dam reduction with gear and elusiveness/adrenaline rush up. Is the extra 10% from battle forged really that impactful? Should i be spending points somewhere else entirely?

Any thoughts would be appreciated - thanks all.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3413221810
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3413222574
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3413223562

[funkmonster7]

Hmm... tricky situation. Because you took practically the whole Athletics tree.

Personally, I'd skip Sudden Lunge, but it isn't because it is bad, more like a personal preference just for spear build in general. There are generally other skills I value more than Sudden Lunge in the case of a spear build.

I'd advise learning the whole spear tree. Regroup is insanely good, one of your best skills.

Battle-Forged isn't that great if you aren't planning to use Armored Combat skills much. But Tactical Advantage in Warfare is almost a must-have given how many Maneuver skills you have. Reducing all their cooldowns by 20%, also with their energy costs will help you a ton. The Offensive/Defensive Tactics themselves are also good.

I'd get Peak Performance, it is a free buff as long as you have energy above 50%.

Probably don't bother with Finisher, that skill is good for high-damage weapons because Finisher on its own doesn't do great damage. Refreshing everything quickly sounds good on paper, but Finisher doesn't refresh itself, just noting that. You're better off stacking skills that lower your cooldowns generally speaking, which is why Regroup and Tactical Advantage would be my first choices.

Some people might say, "Finisher does great damage, it crits!"; I know it crits, or at least has a high chance of critting. But a crit's damage depends on your base damage, and the base damage of spear is weak compared to a 2h axe or 2h mace. Finisher is great for skills that take a long time to cooldown, this is why you hardly ever see a crit-based dagger build run for Finisher - it doesn't need it, Quick Hands cools down dagger skills fast enough already. So you more often see people play DW daggers instead of Finisher dagger.

Spear's version of Quick Hands is Regroup, not as potent but with some -CD gear you can get the skills' cooldowns lower. To that end; you probably should've gotten 15 Wil as well, but whatever... Hopefully the -CD from Tactical Advantage and Peak Performance will help you. It is -30% CD in total after all.

[Pixel Peeper]

That's amusing, I am also a level 28 spear user with 3 points left and unsure where to place them. I also went into Spears, Athletics, Warfare and Survival.

But your attribute distribution is very different from mine. I went 25 Perception and 20 Willpower.

Only raising Agility up to 15 now, and then only very reluctantly, since the stat does very little for the build's main strategy (i.e. keeping things immobilized 2 tiles from you, where you can't Counter and don't need to Dodge). But that's the catch: until now, I was building for the weapon's strengths, which was a bit of a mistake. When the weapon's strengths aren't applicable, you're left with the weapon's weaknesses and nothing else. Now that I know there are things I simply can't keep Immobilized, I find that I would enjoy the +7.5% Counter Chance and +5 Dodge Chance from raising Agility to 15.

I would tell you to get Wounding Spearhead, as it has been ridiculously good for me. Now you have 10% less Crit Chance than I do due to having 10 fewer points in Perception, but you do have Intimidation, which functionally adds up to 25% Crit Chance if you hit the same thing repeatedly enough, and I do not have that skill. Your Crit Chance should be pretty similar to mine.

I would have made a similar argument for Opportune Moment (it's based on crits), but since you don't have any Willpower, not only do you not regain much Energy from it, you also can't use your abilities as often and probably don't feel the need for more Energy.

I personally found One at a Time to be insanely good. Basically a permanent +10% Weapon Damage, +10% Immobilization Chance, and +6% Crit chance. The catch being, that's against things I don't struggle with (things I can Immobilize). It's a "win more" skill. I don't regret taking it because it's so amazing, but again, it's leaning into my strengths instead of preparing against my weaknesses.

And I went more into Survival. Resourcefulness gave me Fatigue Resistance (I found myself becoming seriously fatigued when doing two-floor dungeons) in addition to all sorts of other goodies (tons of money, better gathering, +5% EXP gain) that admittedly don't do anything for my personal power at max level. It also opened up Huntmaster for the -5% Fumble Chance and +4% Crit Chance (you don't need the Fumble chance reduction, but I do).

I went left side of Warfare, you went right side.

Did not go into Armored Combat at all. Brace for Impact is very "meh" IMO, and Battle-Forged is pretty bad for Spears since you're generally incentivized to not move.

Our builds being so different, I probably don't have a good feel for it. For how it plays. For what issues you encounter most often, or what situations are the ones that give you the most trouble. But that's where I'd start. You don't need to win more against things you have no trouble with. You need to deal with situations that are bad for you.

But I would most definitely not sacrifice Wounding Spearhead for Battle-Forged. Wounding Spearhead is super good. I was shocked when I took it, and I don't even have any points in the stats that increase its effectiveness.

Just in case someone cares about my own dilemma:

I am considering putting points into Disengage and Dash... but trying to work around my inability to keep heavily armored enemies out of melee range from me, I am also thinking of putting points into Determination and, more importantly, Stay Back (a guaranteed +10% Crit Chance against things that get adjacent with me, +20% Crit Chance if I sweep and they move to me again, is awesome). The +25% Knockback is also fantastic.

Not sure what I'll do with the last point.

[AldouzTek]

Spear with Dash can kill a bear easily, just Bleed from range 2 use Dash then repeat xD.

[money3030]

Battle Forged is just a good passive to pass up, well unless you're Heavy Armor but even then, read it carefully, it works Silly with Set up and Brace for Impact, as well as other Utility skills.

Also the heck you using Crossbow without Takeaim.. you could skip Dexterity but never take Aim, both if you really need sudden swaps.

[Pixel Peeper]

Originally posted by money3030:

Battle Forged is just a good passive to pass up, well unless you're Heavy Armor but even then, read it carefully, it works with Silly with Set up and Brace for Impact, as well as other Utility skills.

Also the heck you using Crossbow without Takeaim.. you could skip Dexterity but never take Aim, both if you really need sudden swaps.

I don't really see Battle-Forged working particularly well with any of these (at least the two I can understand, I don't know what attack "Silly" is). There's an insanely bad bonus for using a Stance or Maneuver (-10% Damage Taken is virtually nothing due to being applied last, and it only lasts for this one turn). Especially since the spear stance has infinite duration and is something you normally set up way before enemies are on you. The bonuses you get from moving only include Charges and Maneuvers that move you, not all of them. Spears have no Charge, and only one Maneuver that moves you (Regroup, which am most definitely not a fan of).

In any case it's utter garbage compared to Wounding Spearhead. I'm hoping the Armored Combat tree sees some improvements in the future.

I think the idea of taking Dexterity and not Taking Aim is that Taking Aim comes free with Dexterity. Lure your next enemy out, switch to your crossbow and then boom, your crossbow autoreloads itself and Taking Aim activates automatically, without even spending a turn on either. You shoot your enemy three times, switch to your spear (doesn't take a turn thanks to Dexterity, and you don't even need to bother to reload the crossbow first), finish the enemy with your spear, and this sets up your crossbow for another free Reload + Taking Aim the next time you pull it out.

[dyson_ruin]

The calibre of feedback here is excellent. Funkmonster, I think you are correct and that finisher may in fact be misplaced for this char since spears hit for so much less than other two handers. I would also have to pick up right on target which does give 3% crit chance but is otherwise a wasted point for this build. Going down the middle of warfare for the tactics and tactical advantage seems better. That gives me the ability to bump crit chance with offensive and/or use defensive to shore up dodge if I mismanage elusiveness badly. The cooldown reduction on offensive and the flat cooldown reduction also helps get me closer to what I imagined finisher doing. I can also finish out the spear tree and take peak performance going that route (as well as have a point to spare - probably for intimidation).

Pixel, to your point of needing to shore-up bad scenarios rather than improving already very favorable ones I think intimidation can help alot (I actually have not allocated it on my tree). In the scenarios where I am spamming impaling lunge/nail down/sudden lunge at range as planned the crit chance will stack as you said, but this should also be useful when enemies break through and I am dodging/countering to get strike ticks. I think that also applies to opportune movement (on the way to tactical advantage anyway) beacause of the counters. You sold me on wounding spearhead as well, especially with the intimidation crit chances.

As far as the attribute distribution I figured that the energy costs were already an issue with spear skills and heavy armor was out of the question, so why not go the complete opposite way and lean into dodge. Agility also gets the counter chances which are very nice. I do wish I had more crit chance though. As it stands I cant hit any more breakpoints so I will probably just dump the remainder into willpower since the energy recoup skill scaling and energy cost reduction/cooldown reuction arent tied to the 5 point thresholds.

For your situation, do you have elusiveness? Dash and disengage are great for bugging out of bad situations/kiting but if you have three points it is the next on the tree.

[dyson_ruin]

Yes - the idea behind dexterity was to get the advantage of take aim if it is pre-charged in basically every engagement but also have the flexibility to keep shooting and not lose a turn to swapping back to the spear. It is also useful for popping a shot at a loitering ranged enemy after killing a melee enemy on the fly with the free reload before either charging in or ducking around a corner/cover. It has felt pretty solid, especially early game, but I suppose the real question is if it is worth the opportunity cost of another AP. The more I think about not having another 2 range spear attack (seize the initiative) seems kind of crazy.

[funkmonster7]

Spear is very versatile and can be played several ways. Unfortunately, it is considered weaker than other builds even then, so it is sometimes hard to get the balance right.

Str spear will focus a lot on block chance.

Agi spear will focus a lot more on immobilization using skills.

Prc spear will focus on crits which is also immobilization focus, but at the same time using Wounding Spearhead.

Vit spear is basically block spear like Str, but focused a bit more on tanking instead of just blocking/dodging.

Str spear usually pairs with Agi for block/dodge combo. But can also be Str/Vit for a bit more tanky.

Wil spear is skill spam, usually paired with Prc or Agi to get immobilization chance up. Sometimes this is paired with magic.

The thing is, Str/Vit spear loses to 2h sword and other shield tank builds in blocking/tanking. Agi/Prc spear loses to ranged weapons because Taking Aim is much better.

The big weakness of spear is you have no real counter to arrows, because you can't block arrows. So, I would personally argue that heavy armor is better for spear because it covers your weaknesses. (Or at least medium armor, but not light because arrows.)

With how the game works now, enemies will almost definitely get right up to you. This is why for me, if I play spear build, I will take the following repositioning skills (or at least choose from this list, I don't have enough AP for them all):

Regroup
Dash
Leg Sweep
Unyielding Defense

I will prioritize the first 3, and only take UD if I'm playing a full tank spear build. Full tank in this case means I have 20+ Vit and plan to get hit a lot. Velmir's trait means you need to take hits to do damage, and no matter how fast you cool your skills, there is always a downtime. So, a full tank spear build using UD focuses more on tanking and debuffing enemies like a normal tank would, and using Nail Down more as a knockback skill instead of immobilization.

Battle-Forged also works better for heavy armor because heavy armor will cost you a lot of energy, so any -skills energy cost is good. But the real winner for heavy armor is actually Brace for Impact - you have -25% cooldowns duration for BfI if you wear heavy armor. So, during your maneuver skills downtimes you pop BfI to tank, when BfI runs out you pop UD, when UD runs out you pop Leg Sweep - Nail Down combo, and then BfI again. Even if you run out of maneuver skills, you still have the high protection of heavy armor, especially against arrows. And lastly, you can risk taking a hit from Skull Crusher or Battering Ram, usually if you wear light armor and use BfI, on the off chance you lose your gamble, you die soon after getting stunned.

The downside to such a build is you don't do as much damage. But this is why I like Regroup so much - it cools all your spear active cooldowns quickly, repositions, and gives you some good block and counter chances. But if you choose to focus on getting UD, you can't focus on Athletics to get to Peak Performance and Adrenaline Rush, so it is a sacrifice. Regroup also replenishes your block power based on your Vit. So naturally if you have low block chance and low block power (low Str) and you aren't built as a tank spear, Regroup is not as good.

It's just that since you've already invested a lot into the Athletics tree, you may as well focus on it as you're already lvl 28. Adrenaline Rush is also a good skill for spear, I usually sleep on that skill which is my own mistake. :P

I'm playing spear build now but using Arna. I still don't know if I will go the tank build or standard build (standard being not using UD). But I use Arna because she has -dmg taken buff for her trait, and -cd, and -SEC (Skills/spells Energy Cost). All are good for spear build. She is probably the best spear character instead of Velmir. Starting with Arna is also not hard, because her unique sword can sell for some decent money, and I can learn the spear tree from the guard captain, and get a free spear from him. And I can upgrade to Goedendag as long as I can find one from the enemy and repair it. It will still cost me some money but as long as I play smart, I can do it.

Dirwin is also good, but only if you pair with some bow skills right at the start. I wanna go pure spear and only use crossbow later on in the game if I must.

[money3030]

Originally posted by Pixel Peeper:

Originally posted by money3030:

Battle Forged is just a good passive to pass up, well unless you're Heavy Armor but even then, read it carefully, it works with Silly with Set up and Brace for Impact, as well as other Utility skills.

Also the heck you using Crossbow without Takeaim.. you could skip Dexterity but never take Aim, both if you really need sudden swaps.

I don't really see Battle-Forged working particularly well with any of these (at least the two I can understand, I don't know what attack "Silly" is). There's an insanely bad bonus for using a Stance or Maneuver (-10% Damage Taken is virtually nothing due to being applied last, and it only lasts for this one turn). Especially since the spear stance has infinite duration and is something you normally set up way before enemies are on you. The bonuses you get from moving only include Charges and Maneuvers that move you, not all of them. Spears have no Charge, and only one Maneuver that moves you (Regroup, which am most definitely not a fan of).

In any case it's utter garbage compared to Wounding Spearhead. I'm hoping the Armored Combat tree sees some improvements in the future.

I think the idea of taking Dexterity and not Taking Aim is that Taking Aim comes free with Dexterity. Lure your next enemy out, switch to your crossbow and then boom, your crossbow autoreloads itself and Taking Aim activates automatically, without even spending a turn on either. You shoot your enemy three times, switch to your spear (doesn't take a turn thanks to Dexterity, and you don't even need to bother to reload the crossbow first), finish the enemy with your spear, and this sets up your crossbow for another free Reload + Taking Aim the next time you pull it out.

Athletics skill mostly like Mighty Kick to reduce Block power, Legsweep for repositions or Stagger/immobilize.

[iankoen10]

I use Jolt some times the debuff to move resistance helps I also took impulse and potential difference but those two I barley use.

[Pixel Peeper]

Originally posted by dyson_ruin:

For your situation, do you have elusiveness? Dash and disengage are great for bugging out of bad situations/kiting but if you have three points it is the next on the tree.

I do have Elusiveness. I initially didn't think I'd need it that often, as I hoped to keep things Immobilized outside of melee ranged, but now I've very glad I have it. Mainly I took it because I wanted Peak Performance real bad. Adrenaline Rush is really nice too.

But I did the Athletics tree wrong. I should have done the left line (Disengage, Dash) to access Elusiveness, and the middle right line (Not This Time, Sudden Lunge) to access No Time to Linger. Instead I did the middle left line (Leg Sweep, Inner Reserves). Now I deeply regret it. I could have had Dash and Stay Back. Now I'm going to have to choose between the two.

Gonna have to make that choice soon, too... I just ran a 4-skull and got to level 29, more than halfway to level 30. Got a new relic, a unique 2H axe, and a giant pile of gold (found my first secret room in there). I'm shopping for a couple last things and some more gambling scrolls, but level 30 is just around the corner.

I really hope we can respec soon. Otherwise, I feel like I crippled my character forever.

[Whatever100500]

Maxed Hunter's mark is -40% to move/control/bleed resists, which would be great for spear too. But you'd need far more than 30 points to combine high investment into ranged, spears and athletics (and I don't think just fully trading athletics for spear makes the build better)...

[dyson_ruin]

WOW wounding spearhead is indeed busted.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3413764160
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3413763676

No one tell the devs but I don't think it is capping the extra damage. I was criting for maybe 55-65 previously. Was it behaving this way before the last patch (x.x.x.16)?

[Pixel Peeper]

Hah...

Well, the maximum extra damage is equal to your combined Strength and Agility. For me it was just 22 for most of my career, but for you it's 40 (and only on opponents with 200+ HP)

Additionally, that 201 crit was with Nail Down, which for you adds +40% Weapon Damage on top of whatever other Weapon Damage buffs you may have had.

Given the numbers, I would imagine that the extra damage is affected by Crit Efficiency. So it'd be pretty huge. That extra 40 damage would be increased to maybe 70 from your Weapon Damage, and then to maybe 105 thanks to Crit Efficiency (wild guesses, but you get the picture).

So that'd be +105 damage on top of your crit.

I believe Wounding Spearhead is the whole reason Spears are the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ weapons in the game by far. They take two hands but do less damage than one-handed weapons. They are super easy to use but for some reason inflict Energy Cost penalties equal to those of the heaviest weapons in the game, 2H Maces. Very few of their attacks have +Weapon Damage, the most common one (Impaling Lunge) actually has -Weapon Damage.

But they have Wounding Spearhead.

Before Wounding Spearhead, you're doing all these puny little pokes at your opponent and doing very little.

After Wounding Spearhead, you get to hit right in their juicy parts and do very nice damage. Assuming you crit.

I had a very, very low opinion of spears before I took Wounding Spearhead. But now I think they're fine.

I just wish Spears were much better base weapons, so we wouldn't need an overpowered Wounding Spearhead to make them good.