Weapon skills feedback

[JuX]

I think the whole weapon skill category is in need of improvement. It puts heavy emphasis on the player to decide their entire build within first hour of the game essentially. Which will become even shorter when character creation gets implemented.

This bit frustrating when you come across good weapons, curses and enchantments. Only to cast them aside as weapon oriented character. Simply because you had to make your entire endgame character at the start, resulting in regrets.


Now obviously people recommended respec to this and to an extent i agree. Thou i think it there should be something like proficiency experience that you spend to swap weapon skill points to another weapon at caravan.

[Pixel Peeper]

Some people are advocating not investing in Weaponry trees for that specific reason.

It's hard to lose out on a bunch of super good abilities for a weapon, but... it's liberating to be able to use any weapon upgrade that you find. And it lets you go deeper into other skill trees.

Admittedly, the ability to respec would be a big solution for the whole "I use this one weapon type and all other weapons don't exist for me" problem.

[funkmonster7]

Deciding which weapon tree to focus on is actually part of the general gameplay. The idea that devs had in mind, as explained by Wayfinder long ago, is that the player doesn't have to read up on a ton of info in the wiki first before deciding to play a build. Instead, it is more like a "work things out as you play" progression.

Most players that are able to work out the entire build within the first hour of the game already have replayed the game enough times to know their way around. You're not expected to have this level of proficiency to be able to play the game however. It is just a matter of common sense once you've played enough and know what to learn and what not to learn for whatever build you play.

Take an example, most people who first play a mage will be scratching their heads about the backfire mechanic. Once they get it, they'll learn how to manage it with Seal of Finesse, Precise Movements, etc. On their next playthrough, they might decide to learn SoF early - only to realize that in order to keep SoF stacks up, they need to stay in one spot, but in the early game that is dangerous for mages. So maybe, SoF should be learned when playing a mage build, but not too early in the game.

A veteran like me immediately knows SoF shouldn't be learned too early in the game because I already went through that phase where I realized my mistake learning SoF too early. But if you made the same mistake you're not as badly punished by it as you might think, because you will need Seal of Insight which has SoF as one of its two prerequisite skills.

Take another example, you decide to play a dagger build because you like sneaky-stabby. And then you realize as you play, that ranged enemies are a bit of a concern as dagger skill tree doesn't have any charge skills, unlike sword and 1h axe. So from there, you consider other trees that compliment with dagger, such as Athletics - it has Dash, so maybe that can be useful. So on.

Of course if you want the smoothest progression you do need to work out your build more or less at the very start. It isn't a requirement, but it is nice to know what you're doing or where you're heading. That just comes with experience though.

[funkmonster7]

Enchanted equipment should not be overhyped in this game. You'll get lots of good gear that you can't use in the game, it is fair. But you can eventually collect your own set of gear, either from buying from shops (honestly, enchantments on any weapon barely matter in the grand scheme of things), or getting lucky and finding good ones from loot. This game isn't like Diablo 2 or something where you must have the right gear or you can't kill the Act boss. At the moment you pretty much just need the right gear to compliment your build, and you consolidate your build as you keep playing. There is a lot of room for experimentation too.

My most recent example is actually the Pyromancer. As a veteran I know how to play this build well, and I even know how to make it virtually invincible. But after assessing From Blaze to Furnace, I surmise that Pyromancer might actually do really well in close/mid-range combat, seeing as some Pyro spells have this range as well. FBtF definitely makes you more powerful in this range, of course.

So, how do I make this build work? Now, I can just play with the standard 30 Prc 20 Wil build of mine, but since I know I will be donning some kind of armor so I don't get trainwrecked by a Marksman (endgame bandit archer), I might need some Vit. So in my mind, I already know I can sacrifice some Prc for Vit. Then for AP, I might have to give up on some of my other Pyro abilities to get melee combat skills. As of now, I don't know exactly what I'll do, but I have a plan, or at least priority for which skills/spells I MUST get, and which skills/spells would help but I can forgo to ensure survival. Nothing set in stone, but at least I have an idea.

The game is designed to challenge your strategic mind, but still allows you to make room for changes if need be. If you're new, don't be afraid to start with a stock standard build. Just don't go crazy with some hybrid build and expect it to rock because, it really is like driving on the road... You don't get to the high speed lanes until you learn how to drive smoothly in the parking lot first.

[JE55BUNN1]

I've only played very limited hours so far, but I kind of enjoy the chaos.

Despite not being able use all the gear I find, it makes is really sweet when I find gear that's optimal or at least useful for my character.

[Stiglitz]

i think the weaponry tree's could use an extra ability or two, specifically swords but theres a few others that need this to add some variability to your skill rotation, its not an easy thing balance wise and its not something that can be done frivolously but it would be nice. im currently playing a 1h sword run so thats why that weapon comes to mind for me but there are many others, when you compare daggers to swords it kinda shows how interesting and thought out daggers are and then you look at swords which has a lot of passives and what active abilities are there tend to be a little lack luster(though theres fun to be had, it just needs a little work maybe).

the worst part about the current state of things is if you want to play a different character then what is provided you will have to walk to mannshire early which will take an hour or two(or likely more) of travel and fighting and careful pathing just to buy a book or two to unlock magic or too get training in one handed swords, it goes on and on.

i love this game quite a bit but there are problems.

this is likely a me problem but it does get a little boring when you are level 20-25ish and youve been using the same 2-4 skills over and over again for the last 15-20 hours, because theres no way to respec (other then the save editor) you cant really spice up your playstyle.

I dont think theres an easy fix and these issues dont ruin the game or anything, they are just some wrinkles in the project.

[Rabid]

Originally posted by Stiglitz:

the worst part about the current state of things is if you want to play a different character then what is provided you will have to walk to mannshire early which will take an hour or two(or likely more) of travel and fighting and careful pathing just to buy a book or two to unlock magic or too get training in one handed swords, it goes on and on.

It's not that hard to run through the first contract + the brewery without picking any weapon skills.

[JuX]

@funkmonster "Most players that are able to work out the entire build within the first hour of the game already have replayed the game enough times to know their way around."

This is very bad argumentation entirely based around the veteran experience. It's basically like a entry level job position, where you need 10 years of experience before applying. And thats not how games should be for new players.

The penalties for this error are huge for weapon focused characters as changing your weapon immediately makes all those skill points wasted, while with basic skills and magic are always available.

Originally posted by JE55BUNN1:

I've only played very limited hours so far, but I kind of enjoy the chaos.

Despite not being able use all the gear I find, it makes is really sweet when I find gear that's optimal or at least useful for my character.

What kind of character are you making? Hopefully thou you can remain as optimistic when you find high tier cursed and unique items that are great, but not for your character.

[Vendetta]

Originally posted by Stiglitz:

i think the weaponry tree's could use an extra ability or two, specifically swords but theres a few others that need this to add some variability to your skill rotation, its not an easy thing balance wise and its not something that can be done frivolously but it would be nice. im currently playing a 1h sword run so thats why that weapon comes to mind for me but there are many others, when you compare daggers to swords it kinda shows how interesting and thought out daggers are and then you look at swords which has a lot of passives and what active abilities are there tend to be a little lack luster(though theres fun to be had, it just needs a little work maybe).

the worst part about the current state of things is if you want to play a different character then what is provided you will have to walk to mannshire early which will take an hour or two(or likely more) of travel and fighting and careful pathing just to buy a book or two to unlock magic or too get training in one handed swords, it goes on and on.

i love this game quite a bit but there are problems.

this is likely a me problem but it does get a little boring when you are level 20-25ish and youve been using the same 2-4 skills over and over again for the last 15-20 hours, because theres no way to respec (other then the save editor) you cant really spice up your playstyle.

I dont think theres an easy fix and these issues dont ruin the game or anything, they are just some wrinkles in the project.

What? Just talk to a teacher in osbrook. They teach you level one for 250 coins. Not everything has to be learned in mannshire.

[Mimung]

Idk I have no issue with committing to a weapon or style, its not like one is worse than the others. Its just about what sounds cool to you, what looks good for the style you want to play and then u commit to it....


In other games were rarity plays a role there a ways to trade said items, maybe in D2 would you consider to reroll a char if u found that gg item.

Finding items that are not for your build has always been a thing and the answer most often was just: its not for me. I never found that to be an issue.

Then certain games introduced class specific loot pools and that was a big turn-off for me.

The funny thing is in Stoneshard there arent even such gg items and or by the time you find them they dont really matter anymore.

Are you telling me finding a T3 blue axe in a T2 dungeon makes you want to reroll your geo sorc?

[JuX]

Originally posted by Mimung:

Idk I have no issue with committing to a weapon or style, its not like one is worse than the others. Its just about what sounds cool to you, what looks good for the style you want to play and then u commit to it....


In other games were rarity plays a role there a ways to trade said items, maybe in D2 would you consider to reroll a char if u found that gg item.

Finding items that are not for your build has always been a thing and the answer most often was just: its not for me. I never found that to be an issue.

Then certain games introduced class specific loot pools and that was a big turn-off for me.

The funny thing is in Stoneshard there arent even such gg items and or by the time you find them they dont really matter anymore.

Are you telling me finding a T3 blue axe in a T2 dungeon makes you want to reroll your geo sorc?

Magic and basic abilities are not really part of the discussion cause they are still practical even when you change your weapon. While switch your weapon type immediately renders the skill points you spend on the previous weapon type completely useless.

Hence my point about allowing you to swap skill points within weapon skill category. With something like weapon proficiency experience you spend to swap weapon skill points.

[money3030]

Just remember that said weapon has critical effects you can check in the skill tab. Resistances makes having an irrelevant enchantment useless i.e Having a stun on a sword 😂 since it applies bleed on crits.

[Mimung]

Okay... tell me of a real scenario.

What item did u find where you thought you need to switch weapon class?

[Pixel Peeper]

Originally posted by Mimung:

Are you telling me finding a T3 blue axe in a T2 dungeon makes you want to reroll your geo sorc?

Extremely unlikely.

But given that there are nine different types of melee weapons, and investing in one means you have to use that weapon forever or have your precious skill points wasted, that means 8 out of 9 weapons that you find are unusable.

This game already has an issue with loot almost always being worthless. You find some powerfully enchanted ancient robe crafted by archwizards in ages long past, and... nobody's gonna want it. A tailor will not spend a bit of time and materials fixing a super powerful magic robe that they could sell for thousands of gold. It's trash.

Now factor in that, even if you find a super high tier weapon in great condition, 8 out of 9 times it's automatically unusable...

Yeah, I understand why people are pissed.

Also why some go as far as to refuse to put any points into weaponry skills. It's incredibly liberating to be able to use any weapon.

[Pixel Peeper]

Originally posted by Mimung:

Okay... tell me of a real scenario.

What item did u find where you thought you need to switch weapon class?

I don't think anyone is claiming "I found a weapon and decided my character is now worthless because I didn't spec into that weapon type". That would be a ridiculous statement.

People are just angry that speccing into a specific weapon type means all other weapon types become unusable. So 89% of the time you find a weapon better that your own, you can't use it.

[Mimung]

Well yeah finding an upgrade to any slot is actually the absolute exception as is.

Id say the exception are maybe rings, ammys and cloaks.

For me even within one weapon school the type of variant was always decisive as well and honestly, i dont know how to solve that "problem" other than introducing a loot bias that is based off of your skill tree choice.

Within some mage staff tiers you have around 5 distinct variants.

Honest to god, why "solve" that via changing loot mechanics?
When you can just buy the stuff...

There is the concept of "ambient loot", the world is as it is, it does not evolve around you and you find all sorts of stuff that mostly isnt for your specialised toon.

Other games introduced "tokens" and class specific loot tables and idk man I just dont like that. It feels too arcadey to me and kills the sense of a world.

T5 purple weapons arent BiS many times bc a simple life leech enchant can offer much more value...

For me weapon tree choice isnt at all about the weapon you found or bought.

It is about how that tree plays
and at any point a weapon can be easily acquired that is more than sufficient to clear.

The trees differ immensely by how they play and that is the beauty of them.

imho