Troll fight needs redesign, especially for archer characters.

[Masterfrog]

This isn't the first time this is brought up, but since nothing has really changed, it bears repeating.

And yes the fight is currently beatable as an archer. I've done it myself. I don't care how many times you've done it or how you cheese it, so don't bring it up.

There are (at least) three problems with the fight:

1. The scripted walking up to the troll like a hapless buffoon. I've decided to play an archer character for a reason, so that I can stay away from danger. Forcing the player to walk close is crazy bad design. EVEN IF this would make the fight too easy, I genuinely don't care, it would be far better than the way it currently is. And it doesn't need to be too easy either, the encounter just needs tweaking. If archers are going to be in the game then they need to be supported. Allow archers to engage the troll from max distance, you cowards.

2. Troll shout + rock throw is a crapshoot. You can maybe survive one hit from the rock, if you're lucky. But that's the issue, only if you're lucky. Even if you do there's no guarantee you won't be hit by the next rock. And if you happen to be in the middle of the 3x3 rock shadow after being being stunned, dazed or disarmed so you can't use Distracting Shot to jump to safety, you're getting hit. For the first two, there's absolutely nothing whatsoever you can do to avoid it. That makes for a boring fight where all you can do is reload the game in frustration.

3. For an archer, the troll fight relies on strategies that feel like "exploits" and that's not fun. It just feels like the game wasn't designed for you to be there. For one, you can anticipate the troll shout and switch out to an empty loadout to avoid the above disarm, but that feels silly at best and an archer pulling out his fists in case the massive monsters does a shout is weird. Second, once you kite the troll to the edge of his little hill, he starts walking around weirdly, like the AI isn't allowed to leave the hill. It's only when you reach this part that the fight starts feeling easier, but mostly it just feels bugged. Again, it feels like the game is telling me I'm doing something wrong and it's certainly not fun.

[laveley]

So in short you are saying that the fight is "bad design" because you can't beat it the way you want to beat it.

[Masterfrog]

Originally posted by laveley:

So in short you are saying that the fight is "bad design" because you can't beat it the way you want to beat it.

Any time a fight relies massively on RNG that the player can't meaningfully impact, that's bad design. Simply hoping you don't get the worse outcomes of the troll shout is not interesting gameplay, and being hit with a giant boulder which at least two-shots you, unless you get a head injury in which case you've already lost, and the only thing you can do against it is be lucky? Bad design. Objectively so.

Forcing the player to go up close in a scripted event when the game ostensibly allows you to create a ranged character that can optimize for long range attacks is ALSO bad design.

You don't need to simp for the developers or whatever it is you're doing. They don't need you defending them. What they need is people telling them how they can make the game better and more fun.

So no, this isn't remotely about "how I want to beat it". Unless by "how I want" you mean "play an archer", then yes, actually, the troll should be balanced to be reasonably beatable whichever weapon skill tree the player chooses to focus.

[HeronVII]

This fight has historically been 10x more difficult for range builds. I do believe some balancing could fix this.

Range builds are a type of build which players were clearly intended to have the option of choosing, and if this ONE type of build has it ten times harder, then there should be some accommodations.

[hueytuckers]

I whole heartedly agree with 1. I've been warned the troll is there. Why in the ______ would I just stroll right up to it and let him smack the crap out of me when I can engage him at range 15. Let me fight him as an archer, or a mage that has spells that can shoot out to ranges longer than my stupid avatar wanders up to.

Number 2 is certainly a crap shoot. If the rock throw lands squarely twice, you're probably done if you haven't wasted skills specifically needed to avoid just this. However if the RNG is in your favor and the rock toss is slightly to the side allowing you to side step it, the fight seems much easier.

As far as number 3. Not only do I wet my pants and throw down my bow, how do I drop my quiver too. I mean, it's strapped to me. It's like dropping my pants. It takes 4 turns to get back in action. I pick up my bow WITH MY HANDS (1 turn). I put the bow IN MY HANDS (2 turns). I pick up my quiver (Which I somehow managed to lose from my buckled belt or from being strapped across my shoulder) 3 turns, and finally place my quiver back on my buckled belt (4 turns)

And honestly, once you learn to dance with the troll (as a melee character) the fight is nothing more than mundane routine and as a ranged character, it really is just luck of the RNG draw.

I suggest at least when the troll goes into his healing trance and closes his eyes, make the crit chance super high. This will shorten the drawn out, grossly repetitive combat, and why doesn't my well aimed arrow into his closed eye affect him like a melee attack anyway while he is in the trance?

[brown29knight]

It is sad, but true, that if you know the melee dance, and can do it well, the best way to beat the troll as an archer is to strap on a T5 melee weapon and dance. Less risk, and it gets the job done.

[hueytuckers]

Yeah, i've killed the troll with bow and cross bows, but I'll basically take a good melee weapon and dance the dance that is part of the design...just wish it had a more varied approach.

[Včelí medvídek]

i see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

You know there is many games and it is very usual 9to poitn it is guaranteed) that if you make one dimensional character there can be enemy that is simply very troubling for you (eg. you play fire mage and there are enemies with fire immunity - basically all RPG games has exactly such scenarios).

Troll is supposed be fight on melee, it is easy, any character cna do ti with little effort and no skill investment. Said Manticore dont even give you such option as melee character without good mobility options sufffer there without chance to easily switch to be effetive on range while range rule.

It is nonsense and false think EVERY build has to work equally on him.

[Pixel Peeper]

It's true that this fight is much, much harder if you stay at range. This is in no small part why you're put relatively close to the Troll: if you started really far away from it, you'd be boned.

I'm not going to say it's necessarily bad design that ranged characters have more trouble against it. Ranged builds are better at some things and worse at others, and that's usually OK.

This is a boss fight, though. In my opinion, it should probably try to accommodate all builds relatively equally.

In the meantime, though... I'll have to echo previous sentiments. Most likely, the best thing you can do is switch to your melee weapon and do the troll dance.

[brown29knight]

Originally posted by Pixel Peeper:

This is a boss fight, though. In my opinion, it should probably try to accommodate all builds relatively equally

It is an OPTIONAL boss fight. If it was in any way mandatory, I would completely agree with you. as it is optional, I'm ok with it being unequal.

[Pixel Peeper]

Originally posted by brown29knight:

It is an OPTIONAL boss fight. If it was in any way mandatory, I would completely agree with you. as it is optional, I'm ok with it being unequal.

I don't know... boss fights are a pretty huge part of the content. They're unique and very rewarding. Hard to imagine any player going "Meh, I think I'm not gonna do the Troll fight this playthrough".

If it can be toned down so that it's not so miserable at range, I think that'd be an improvement.

[Tato]

This viewpoint really depends on which rpgs you came from I won't lie. Just equipping a melee weapon and doing the dance is very docile compared to a lot of rpgs that tote themselves as hardcore.

[laveley]

Originally posted by Masterfrog:

Originally posted by laveley:

So in short you are saying that the fight is "bad design" because you can't beat it the way you want to beat it.

Any time a fight relies massively on RNG that the player can't meaningfully impact, that's bad design. Simply hoping you don't get the worse outcomes of the troll shout is not interesting gameplay, and being hit with a giant boulder which at least two-shots you, unless you get a head injury in which case you've already lost, and the only thing you can do against it is be lucky? Bad design. Objectively so.

Forcing the player to go up close in a scripted event when the game ostensibly allows you to create a ranged character that can optimize for long range attacks is ALSO bad design.

You don't need to simp for the developers or whatever it is you're doing. They don't need you defending them. What they need is people telling them how they can make the game better and more fun.

So no, this isn't remotely about "how I want to beat it". Unless by "how I want" you mean "play an archer", then yes, actually, the troll should be balanced to be reasonably beatable whichever weapon skill tree the player chooses to focus.

It is a minigame. You can beat it with any build, even with archer of you want to poke him from 2 tiles away.

The thing is, you want to poke him from afar. I.e. you want to do the minigame the way you see more fit.

[Dreaming Prince]

i tried this fight yesterday as full bow with 3 points in dagger, both t4 weapons. noticed my dagger did over double damage compared to bow for some reason, critting for over 100 while my bow did a measly 20ish with 35+- crits

so i figured id come back with a better dagger later..

[yochi]

As long as I was conscious of maintaining distance 2, I was able to conquer it with the lightning and bow build.
Level was 25
It might have been easier if I had lunge skills.
距離２を維持するように意識すれば、雷＆弓ビルドで攻略出来ました
レベルは25でした
突進ｽｷﾙがあればもっと楽が出来たかもしれません

[meanmanturbo]

I dislike to boss fihgt on general principle because they are so different from the rest of the game. You being good at clearing contracts and having a good build has almost no bearing on the bosses.