Stoneshard

Stoneshard

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Heau Oct 26, 2024 @ 1:48pm
Ranged Dirwin, melee weapon choice
Hi there, first run in a very long time.

I'm playing Dirwin full ranged. levelling perception first. I'm lvl 3, I picked up a rare rondel(+5% pen, +10% crit eff) from first crypt dungeon but also lucked out a Norse Spear from a random grave and can't make up my mind.

Not really planning to dive down in either weapon tree. Maybe just one weapon-specific active skill + Seize the initiative down the line.

Also more broadly, are there any weapon setup that seem to perform much better without weapon-specific skill tree investment for a full bow build?

Thanks
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Showing 1-15 of 21 comments
Chmerity Oct 26, 2024 @ 3:47pm 
Knife with the free equipment swap perk for those uncomfortable close encounters when you slip up and let them close.
xenofite Oct 26, 2024 @ 7:23pm 
I agree, daggers are all your need combined with the Quick Hands, Double Lunge and Dexterity perks. Alternatively, sword and shield is a solid choice for zero investment second loadout.
Spears are too build dependant, but I suppose a Godentag can carry you through a few levels in the early game.
Last edited by xenofite; Oct 26, 2024 @ 7:24pm
seeing as bows miss almost every damn shot its kinda a joke to do anything but melee or magic. seems hardly anyone making games in this genre know what they are doing
xenofite Oct 26, 2024 @ 10:05pm 
Gotta love people that completely ignore taking aim and point-blank penalties and complain about ranged being ♥♥♥♥
funkmonster7 Oct 26, 2024 @ 11:19pm 
Originally posted by Heau:
Hi there, first run in a very long time.

I'm playing Dirwin full ranged. levelling perception first. I'm lvl 3, I picked up a rare rondel(+5% pen, +10% crit eff) from first crypt dungeon but also lucked out a Norse Spear from a random grave and can't make up my mind.

Not really planning to dive down in either weapon tree. Maybe just one weapon-specific active skill + Seize the initiative down the line.

Also more broadly, are there any weapon setup that seem to perform much better without weapon-specific skill tree investment for a full bow build?

Thanks
Hello Heau, welcome back. :)

Basically, my advice is use whatever hits the hardest, against whatever you're facing in melee. If you start out with a Dirk and pick up a Rondel from the necromancer miniboss, upgrade it. If you find a spear that does slightly more damage, use that instead. But note if you use a Rondel you can pair it with a Fist Shield, or any shield that gives you decent block chance (Fist Shield tends to block like ♥♥♥♥, but has +10% counter chance).

My personal favorite in the early game is Footman Mace, with whatever shield you can get. I've played ranged build multiple times, this time around my Dirwin used the 2h mace he picked up from the first miniboss (I forgot what he was using before that). Then he switched to a Rondel from the necromancer miniboss, along with a Fist Shield. On my 2nd run of Osbrook cemetery I found a Footman Mace from one of the skeletons, so I put that on him. Also upgraded the shield to Round Shield, because it gives more block chance and has no dodge penalties (I found +10% counter chance to be kind of underwhelming).

My reason for Footman Mace is it does crushing damage, which helps mitigate some damage resistances skeletons have. My bow does only piercing damage so it is good to spread out my damage types with something my worst enemy is weak against.

As for the Rondel, I keep it in my inventory so I can keep skinning stuff.

My Dirwin is now level 13, I upgraded him with a Flanged Mace, also picked up from a skeleton (in Brynn cemetery though). Still the same Rondel in inventory for the same purpose. But I upgraded my shield with the Nomad Kalkan, it is superior to Round Shield in every way.

Don't bother with melee skill trees. They can work, but only minimally. I equip my Dirwin with as many cooldown duration -% gear as possible. Combined with Suppression and Precision, along with Startling Volley while using a bow, and also Distracting Shot, I can cut my abilities cooldown down to the point I can spam abilities back to back.

Basically:

Suppression gives -10% cooldown duration per stack.

Precision is a passive that reduces your active abilities cooldowns by 1 turn when your shot hits a target.

Startling Volley can hit 2 targets or 1 target twice when using bow, thus potential -2 turns cooldown with Precision.

And Distracting Shot reduces all active ranged weapons abilities cooldown by 2 turns, if its shot hits the target.

Combined with Long Shot and Thrill of the Hunt, you can spam abilities almost indefinitely, limited only by your energy.

Thus, I wear Pearl Necklace (-10%), Falconeer Gloves (-5%) and Vehement Gambeson (-10%) for a total of -25% cooldown duration to start with. (You can use the starter armor for -10% cooldown duration as well, but I upgraded to Vehement Gambeson for its higher prot value.)
Last edited by funkmonster7; Oct 27, 2024 @ 12:35am
funkmonster7 Oct 26, 2024 @ 11:27pm 
Also, when your Dirwin is like level 15 with full Perception from level 2 onwards, with Taking Aim you can basically ignore the adjacent tile accuracy penalty.

This is because you have a slew of abilities that lower the enemy's dodge chance etc. Negative dodge = accuracy buff for you. This means if anything survives the first 5 shots you throw at him, he has -15% dodge from Anticipation. Your accuracy penalty at melee range will be -25%, so that will be a -10% accuracy penalty in the end.

And then you factor in all the accuracy you get from your Perception stat, your gear (I don't need any +acc gear though), your character trait, and Taking Aim (its accuracy buff increases based on your Perception stat, effectively multiplying your accuracy increase per level), you would've negated that -10% accuracy penalty. And still get the bonuses from Taking Aim where if you shoot within 4 tiles, enemies can get knocked back and/or immobilized and/or staggered.

And depending on which enemy you face (what charge skill they have), you'll want to start running away before they can charge you. Always account for 1 turn discrepancy so you can load Taking Aim before using Distracting Shot, to guarantee you land that shot and lower all your active cooldowns etc.

This is why my Dirwin has no melee ability whatsoever, he doesn't need any. With him I plan to skill up all the Survival tree so I can get my achievement. :)

If this was my proper build I wouldn't do that, I'd go down the Athletics tree to make him more powerful with Peak Performance, his Long Shot will One Shot enemies. Or Leg Sweep can get me outside that adjacent tile distance, and follow up with that TA-DS kiting strategy (taking aim and distracting shot).

NOTE: One last thing I have to mention: Taking Aim's ability bonus is applied on the basis of X amount PER enemy within 4 tiles. Which means whatever number you see there for knockback, immobilization and staggered, that gets multiplied by how many enemies are within 4 tiles of you... With Startling Volley you can perform insane crowd control to 2 enemies in that distance. I use this strategy against zombies and skeletons all the time: I amputate the zombie's arm (which makes him drop his weapon), then turn around and zone out the skeleton.

So, to whoever is saying that adjacent accuracy penalty makes bows miss all the time etc............. git gud, buddy. There is a reason why Dirwin bow build is the top build in the whole game. Sleeping on it just because of what doesn't look good on paper is your loss.
Last edited by funkmonster7; Oct 26, 2024 @ 11:42pm
Včelí medvídek Oct 27, 2024 @ 2:23am 
I am playing ranged Dirwin right now.

The one I choosed and want to use is 2-h axe, but.. at very first dungeon I was lucky and found footman sword in secret room and still using it with Buckler now past level 15 in Brynn dungeons.. combination of dodge + counterattack + block make me suprisingly good at melee if necessary - sure if I get hit I feel it a lot, but normally the enemy just hit air while I relaiable counterattack... consideting I have zero investment in sword tree and it already works well, going this route seems be very appealing.

I guess 1h-mace work similar but it does not have the sword bonuses and frankly I found no issue dealing with skeletons without it.

Other I considered - Spear with nail down seems be excellent way how keep enemy immobilized on distance.

And finally there is also option use both bow and crossbow, switching between each other,
Last edited by Včelí medvídek; Oct 27, 2024 @ 2:30am
Včelí medvídek Oct 27, 2024 @ 2:28am 
Originally posted by funkmonster7:
Thus, I wear Pearl Necklace (-10%), Falconeer Gloves (-5%) and Vehement Gambeson (-10%) for a total of -25% cooldown duration to start with. (You can use the starter armor for -10% cooldown duration as well, but I upgraded to Vehement Gambeson for its higher prot value.)
Considering you go full precision+agility how you deal with energy??

I am normally out of energy aafter 2 rounds of abilities and barely recover enough to keep taking aim or some distracting shots.

I have already killed ancient troll like that but do not see how lower CD would help in in any prolonged fight that can utilize it.

PS: iusing light "duelist" armor pieces.
Last edited by Včelí medvídek; Oct 27, 2024 @ 2:39am
funkmonster7 Oct 27, 2024 @ 9:40am 
Originally posted by Včelí medvídek:
And finally there is also option use both bow and crossbow, switching between each other,
It is an option in late game when you don't need to bash barrels down for loot. Otherwise early on you're better with a melee weapon on swap.

Originally posted by Včelí medvídek:
Originally posted by funkmonster7:
Thus, I wear Pearl Necklace (-10%), Falconeer Gloves (-5%) and Vehement Gambeson (-10%) for a total of -25% cooldown duration to start with. (You can use the starter armor for -10% cooldown duration as well, but I upgraded to Vehement Gambeson for its higher prot value.)
Considering you go full precision+agility how you deal with energy??

I am normally out of energy aafter 2 rounds of abilities and barely recover enough to keep taking aim or some distracting shots.

I have already killed ancient troll like that but do not see how lower CD would help in in any prolonged fight that can utilize it.

PS: iusing light "duelist" armor pieces.
This Dirwin is only level 13 at the moment, he is using a bow that only has +15% skills energy cost. I can understand when he moves on to Longbow or something, he will start having energy problems.

My strategy is to enchant energy restoration on all my gear so I have as high energy restoration as possible. I don't need any other enchantment since I'm not planning on getting hit (although once I have 50% energy restoration I'll enchant something else like phy res).

Also, late game I will use 2 bows. One will be a heavy bow/crossbow with +45% or +50% skills energy cost. The other will be a lighter bow/crossbow, which only has +15% skills energy cost. I use the lighter bow/crossbow for skill spam, and heavy bow/crossbow for big hits.

For example, when I activate Suppression, I use the lighter bow. Since swapping between ranged weapons doesn't take a turn, I can swap to heavy bow and use Taking Aim, then Long Shot an enemy, probably insta-kill him.

Then when his other allies are alerted, I swap to lighter bow, TA, then Thrill of the Hunt. Then swap back to heavy bow, use Headshot. So on.

Also, the Pearl Necklace is just early/mid-game equipment. My endgame gear tends to be crit gear. Duelist Belt, crit rings, crit necklace.

And I will learn Opportune Moment, 5% max energy replenishment every crit.

Now, for my bow/crossbow pair-up choices (in endgame), I usually go with one of the following combos:

Curved Bow, Garrison Crossbow
Curved Bow is the strongest bow with +15% skills energy cost, perfect for skill spam. Whereas Garrison Crossbow is the hardest hitting crossbow in the game, so I use it to snipe.

Curved Bow, Carved Longbow or Eeders Bow
Same as the above pairing, but a heavy bow is better for ammo consistency, if I run out of ammo in one of my loadouts I can just use one of the bows and swap the ammo over. (But I usually wear a backpack on Dirwin bow builds so I don't usually have ammo problems.)

Carved Longbow or Eeders Bow, Brynn Crossbow
This is a bit unique, because my main bow is the heavy bow, whereas Brynn Crossbow is just the "light" crossbow even though it packs a huge punch unlike Curved Bow.

Curved Bow, Brynn Crossbow
Curved Bow for Hunter's Mark application on enemies, Brynn Crossbow for sniping.

Another nice thing about crossbows is their crit effect is +100% immobilization chance. Using something like Brynn Crossbow with bodkin bolts, you can lock the enemy down at range without TA, because Brynn Crossbow doesn't have the huge accuracy penalty that bows generally do. So for example, I can just preload the crossbow, when enemy gets to 4 tiles away, I swap from bow to crossbow and pin down the enemy. If I use Distracting Shot, I'm practically guaranteed the immobilization even if there is no crit, because Brynn Crossbow comes with +15% immobilization chance, and TA within 4 tiles also comes with +25% immobilization chance. My Suppression stacks are likely maxed out, and the enemy likely has Hunter's Mark on him, so it is rare that he can resist immobilization at all.

Also, when I say "skill spam", I pretty much only use the following rotation:

1) Light bow - Suppression
2) Heavy bow - TA
3) Heavy bow - Long Shot
4) Heavy bow - TA
5) Heavy bow - Headshot
6) Light bow - TA
7) Light bow - Hunter's Mark
8) Light bow - TA
9) Light bow - Startling Volley (preferably 2 targets)
10) Light bow - TA
11) Light bow - Distracting Shot
12) Light bow - TA
13) Light bow - normal shot

etc.

I start out with heavy bow because they are the ones with range 12, Curved Bow only has range 10. But eventually I use light bow more, heavy bow is just for sniping; whereas light bow is for applying Hunter's Mark.

In the above rotation (which is just an example), my Suppression would've worn out by the time I use Distracting Shot. So it really depends on the situation. Sometimes I'll swap to light bow and use normal shots to lengthen my Suppression duration.

If I'm using crossbow, I skip TA altogether, instead I'll have to reload my crossbow. (But I've actually never used bow/crossbow combo before, the above suggestions are actually what I plan to do with the current Dirwin.)

** Another note is Suppression's duration is 18 turns when using a crossbow. I don't know if the duration stays at 18 turns ticking down if you activate Suppression with a crossbow then swap to a bow. If it doesn't get decreased as a result of weapon swap, then damn... I discovered a crazy good strategy lol.

The reason why I use Pearl Necklace in the beginning is I don't have high enough crit chance, so I opt for skill spam. I also don't have a lot of skills. Later on when I have the full tree, I change things up a bit.

Lastly, my stats aren't exactly Perception/Agility. They are max Perception, after that I tend to switch between Agility and Strength, and the occasional Vitality. I've never maxed out a Dirwin bow build before, the highest I got him to was level 24 before I got bored and deleted the character, to free up space for new characters. So I've never optimized his stats all the way to level 30.

Edit: For armor I don't use Duelist Vest. There is this armor that gives +5% crit, called Skarhogg Garment. It also has -5% fumble chance and +10% crit eff. This is why I don't really invest into Agility as much, instead I spread my stats around so I have enough energy to do what I need to do, and enough weapon damage, crit chance and crit eff to one-shot left right and center. And also, I prefer Eeders Bow more than Curved Longbow, because I can enchant Eeders Bow with -5% fumble chance or something. Between Agility and Strength, I favor Strength. And Dirwin must have some Vitality in order to do what he does best.

Dirwin is also not the only character I use with bow build. When I said I played Dirwin bow builds multiple times, I sort of lied lol... I play Dirwin bow builds most of the time, but that one time I made a Jorgrim bow build, ♥♥♥♥ I kid you not - he is MF-ing powerful. He is the true invincible archer, Dirwin has nothing on him lol. It is a pity I got him to level 21 before I gave up because he can't use shrines...

Between Dirwin, Arna and Jorgrim, I find Jorgrim tends to be strongest archer build, followed by Arna, and Dirwin last. (Arna is good because she practically gets free Pearl Necklace as long as she is fighting at least 2 enemies, not to mention less skill energy cost.)
Last edited by funkmonster7; Oct 27, 2024 @ 10:03am
Heau Oct 28, 2024 @ 2:42pm 
Thanks for the feedback everyone. That character ended up dying early so the question turned out to be not immediately relevant but it was still a good read and a refresher on a few things after so long.
funkmonster7 Oct 28, 2024 @ 5:04pm 
Permadeath? You shouldn't play permadeath to kick things off.

If you want to get the strongest archer, just start with Jorgrim, reroll him until he gets Bran in Osbrook. Learn Ranged Weapons ability tree from him, then pick up the free bow and arrows from the guardhouse (talk to the guard captain). Then go from there. I highly recommend you get Vigor buff first and then visit local dungeon exteriors to get to level 2 quickly, sell some junk weapons (Peasant Flails tend to sell kind of well), buy a snare trap, and use it to trap the bandit miniboss.

After that you're free to do whatever you want. I've deleted my new Dirwin build to start off the Jorgrim bow build (I don't have enough character slots to just make a new Jorgrim bow build without deleting a character), these are the steps I took.
Plaje Oct 29, 2024 @ 4:44pm 
Originally posted by Zathra:
seeing as bows miss almost every damn shot its kinda a joke to do anything but melee or magic. seems hardly anyone making games in this genre know what they are doing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5r-ACKnKpE
funkmonster7 Oct 30, 2024 @ 1:54am 
It must've been hard for Saito to start off that Dirwin with no melee ability whatsoever, and no Taking Aim as well. And permadeath on top of that. I don't have the patience for that kind of grind haha. (Because early game, no Taking Aim and no melee attack ability is really just praying to the RNG god.)
Last edited by funkmonster7; Oct 30, 2024 @ 1:54am
Včelí medvídek Oct 30, 2024 @ 2:42am 
To topic, i would really highlight the sword + buckler combo - had just one of heroic experience with it.

I have encountered Brander first time with this char.. And last char was mage that totally outdpsed his offerings so I kinda forgot those.. but this time I created the worst scenario - I have cleared the room with Brander and agroed him, but decided I will go sleep outside entrance for have safe killing blow - as you can guess along way from his room to entrance of dungeon (luckily pretty nearby, but still..) he made 6 offerings which amde him basically regenarate any damage (bvvtw those things are kinda stupid to not have some expiration but nvm).

After failed attempts I realized the issue but refused to give up - returned to alchemist house in Brynn and picked all empty flasks that were there.

Filled with water I returned to dungeon - on first attempt I managed run/dush around and pur water over all offerings, than killed Brander - all with buckler and sword I have invested zero into... Even managed return with turning quest probably jsut few hours before contract expired.

Now I feel like a boss:p
funkmonster7 Oct 30, 2024 @ 2:43am 
Originally posted by Včelí medvídek:
Considering you go full precision+agility how you deal with energy??
Btw I don't normally advise people using save scumming methods or exploits to deal with their build problems (for exploits, it is simply once the exploits are fixed then so goes away the solution as well, I prefer long-term solutions not quick fixes), but you can get energy drain enchantment either on your weapon or on a cursed equipment. You can always save scum at the witch hut... I never do that because I'm too lazy to bother with it. But even just 5% energy drain goes a long way.

You can see from Saito's video (above) that even with 11 Agility, Dirwin can potentially have minimal fumble chance. Saito didn't max out Perception either, instead he focused on balancing Strength with Perception to get a balance of crit chance with crit eff, along with high weapon damage. (This is where I tend to prefer Jorgrim archer than Dirwin, because Jorgrim doesn't have that 1 point into Agility, and his trait is also much more powerful by late game.)
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Date Posted: Oct 26, 2024 @ 1:48pm
Posts: 21