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Whirlwind with the right set up is basically an insta-kill move. I once quadra killed packs of bisons using it.
You are correct though. Dual wielding is mainly a strength build and not an agility one. With complements from daggers skills, hand efficiency is meaningless since you would almost always be scoring crits
Well, there is the possibility of just having overwhelming weapon damage %. I suppose Strength can work with DW daggers that way. But I actually like relying on counterattack when using DW daggers, and Agility is the stat for that. I haven't tried pairing daggers with heavy armor, I'm hoping to do more DW testing in Rags to Riches because for example, I want to pair my DW daggers build with throwing daggers, but I haven't got the inventory space for that. At least not until I'm filthy rich so I no longer need loot.
I've been thinking about DW as well lately, and this is timely. I generally agree that it is a bit weaksauce, but not terribly so. Instead of consolidating abilities, I'm more in favor of buffing the weaker ones and disentangling and reordering them so that there are different, viable ways of taking only taking parts of the tree. With that in mind:
Skill interactions and ordering
Considering the strong, fixed debuff you get from dual wielding, it's not something that you'd want to do half-measures on. Using only Concentration and its prerequisites, you can get +20% hands efficiency for 3 AP. That is, I think, the core you need for a viable DW build. After that you can either branch out to the right for berserk stuff, or the left for EfE.
Theoretically, you could do Deflect/Dying Fervor/Berserk Tradition, but that'd leave you with only Deflect or being half-dead to get hands efficiency from, and the nice passives from the two other abilities, but since you have to be dual wielding to get them, totally not worth it. You need more hands efficiency to offset the DW penatly.
The left hand Flurry branch is a bit better off. While Flurry doesn't need Dual Wielding Training to get an off hand strike, EfE does, so are you really going to take EfE without DWT, even if the skill tree allows it? Nah.
The anti-synergy between Flurry and EfE on the one hand and Concentration on the other is interesting. It would be better though if there was a more viable DW build without Concentration that leant more into the left-hand side of things. So my idea would be to:
1. Changge Concentration to depend only on DWT and Deflect -> minimum dual wield build, if you want to spend as many AP elsewhere as possible.
2. Change Enough for Everyone to depend on Flurry and Dual WIelding Training (since you want DWT for EfE anyway). Also buff this branch of the skill tree a bit, so it's viable to ignore Concentration if you want. EfE could reduce the cooldown on Flurry, and Flurry could give its hands eff bonus for longer.
3. Change Berserk Traditions to only require Dying Fervor, and chance More Blood! to require Berserk Tradition and EfE. (That would mean switching the positions of the Flurry line into the center and the DWT line to the left).
4. Change Whirlwind to require EfE and Concentration. So to get it you still need major investment into the tree, and need to fully engage with the Concentration stack juggling minigame.
That would leave us with Whirlwind as the left capstone, Unstoppable as the central one, and More Blood! as the right one.
On tier one, we'd have, left to right, Deflect, DWT, Flurry, Dying Fervor.
One tier two, Concentration (requring Deflect & DWT), EfE (req. DWT & Flurry), Berserk Tradition (req. Dying Fervor).
On tier three Whirlwind (req. Concentration and EfE), Unstoppable (req. EfE), and More Blood! (req. EfE and Berserk Tradition).
Bonus idea: remove the dual wielding requirement from the right hand passives - Dying Fervor and Berserk Tradition - since it would be interesting to open up low-health "berserk" builds to two-handed weapons. Since a lot of the bonuses they grant are to hands efficiency (double strength for DW), I don't think it'd be op. More Blood! would still need four prerequisites from the tree, two of which would be unusable for non-DW, so I think it would be ok also.
On Whirlwind
Your comparison to Battering Ram is a bit off, since as the player we're a single combatant and Whirlwind is designed to be mostly a one versus many ability. Not that Whirlwind on an enemy would be much less scary, anyway, depending on their starting hands eff and their stagger chance.
I like the idea of some counterstrike protection, but Whirlwinding a single brigand duelist should stay a terrible idea. How about the first strike against an opponent is immune to counterstrikes, but subsequent strikes are not? So Whirlwinding a group of opponents is still viable with a counterstriker in it, but stupidly attacking a single high-counterstrike enemy will still hand you a Darwin award.
Whirlwind prioritising non-yet-attacked enemies is a good idea. In general, I'd like to see it a bit more viable as an opener, and for that it helps to be more predictable. As a finisher, it is fun but suffers a bit from being a "win more" button that you can use to end a fight you already have in hand with a flourish.
On Strength scaling
Basically, everything in the DW tree scales with AGI, since hands efficiency is doubly effective compared to a single weapon build, and everything runs off it. So I don't think AGI scaling for Whirlwind is really needed. 30 AGI nets you 15 hands eff, which comes out to 1-2 extra strikes compared to a STR build. An extra strike also means an extra chance to stagger.
EfE I could see getting some love for STR builds, and in general. Maybe a +5% block chance scaling on STR to +25% at max?
On Enough for Everyone
I've found it a bit to finicky to use to like it much. It's also hit hard by the action economy, even in a build with Setup and Tactical advantage to make the most out of it being a maneuver. You're forced into doing what's essentially a basic attack for a buff that's usually not worth it unless it persists over several opponents, as it does with Unstoppable.
And even with Unstoppable I've found that there's a lot of positioning involved to make use of it and not kill someone who is standing in the wrong spot with an unlucky counterstrike. I'd like for the range at which it "hops" targets to be increased from by one, so it'll move to the next target even when they are on different sides of you. It should still prioritise targets by range so that's you won't randomly miss your defensive bonus you were counting on having by EfE going to a non--adjacent target.
It also says "Applies the target with "Enough for Everyone" and delivers a strike," but from what I can tell, it seems to be the other ways around - you hit something, and if it survives, it applies EfE. That's problematic because now you have to be careful not to hit things that you could kill with a crit, because then you'd lose out on your EfE. If it worked like described, if you hit something with a lethal EfE strike, the EfE mark would move to the next target immediately (with Unstoppable), which would be fine.
Probably still on the weak side - maybe it could get a stagger chance based on the number of opponents? +25-50% (STR scaling) per adjacent opponent above one? Maybe capped at some number of opponents, let's say five.
On Offensive and Defensive Tactics
Those aren't DW abilities, but the changes from EQ3 have hit them hard if you are dual wielding, and on balance, not in a good way. While before EQ3, the old Offensive Tactic had too strong a synergy with dual wielding, now it is the opposite. I think the number of stacks the Tactics can lose in a single round should be capped at one - the Tactics are IMHO in a good place for single weapon builds, and this wouldn't change much for them.
I'm unsure if counterstrikes reduce Tactics stacks; if the do, I still think this change would be good. You'd still lose stacks on turns where you didn't attack, just not two (or more I guess if you're a 2h sword in a crowd) in one turn. To really profit from the change, you'd need to be in sufficiently dangerous situations that I'd say you'd have earned it. And if they don't reduce them, it'd change nothing, so it'd be fine.
My comparison to Battering Ram is more about the utility of the skill in question, which you addressed anyway. Basically, what I was saying was Whirlwind is just a finisher move, but you can't start with it because you have too little hands eff to make it worthwhile. Potentially you can use Flurry and potentially get +20% hands eff for the next 2 turns, during which if Concentration is active, you can throw a weapon attack skill out before using Whirlwind in the 2nd turn. That will net you +30% hands eff. It gets better if you activate Deflect and let a whole bunch of enemies wail on you, because you'd have an insane amount of hands eff to start Whirlwind pretty early on in the fight. (But getting yourself that thick into the battle right from the beginning may be hard.)
The point is, Whirlwind isn't that great as a finisher move because it only does as much damage as a regular attack. Most other T3 abilities have damage potential, but Whirlwind doesn't. Battering Ram doesn't have a damage potential but it has a definitive purpose which is closing gaps (charging). Between Whirlwind and Battering Ram, the latter is much more useful, and you can get it with only 3 AP invested, instead of Whirlwind which is 4 AP, 2 of which aren't really essential DW skills.
Whirlwind as an opener skill is also not great at all, whereas Battering Ram can be used to start a fight.
I compared with Battering Ram because Armored Combat is the newest skill tree added. Theoretically if I compare Whirlwind with any other attack-type T3 skill, the former is still going to fall short most of the time, just off the top of my head.
Having said this, you've addressed the issue with Whirlwind so I don't have much else to add.
I think EfE does need some kind of a buff that makes it not only more Strength-viable, but also that you get some kind of buff even if you're engaging with a single enemy. Like, just +5% hands eff, but nothing else. You get the rest of the buffs once a second enemy is adjacent to you. This is also to do with the recent Will To Fight mechanic; if say, my basic attacks wore out this enemy and he turns tail and runs, then suddenly I lose my buffs and get owned by the main enemy - not cool.
2h sword also has a similar situation except that is a passive skill. But 2h sword is also mostly a Strength-based build and most 2h sword builds are built around wearing medium/heavy armor, so that playstyle can take the heat if the passive doesn't proc due to enemies running away. For a DW build, it is make-or-break. This is one of the issues I dislike about EfE.
I think EfE's Strength-scaled buff should either be block chance and/or block power. After all, a DW build lacks both, even with 30 Strength you'd only have 30% chance to block (the first 10 Strength doesn't count; you have 0% block chance at 10 Strength). That is barely enough to justify using EfE as a Strength build.
Many of what I'm saying here might be just rehashing of what jotwebe said but I actually find myself agreeing with him more than disagree. (Most of what I disagree, which is very little, needs serious testing for me to know whether my disagreements are even valid.)
If going by what jotwebe suggested, Whirlwind doesn't need Agility scaling, since Strength/Agility builds are separated by two different branches on the same skill tree. However, I think it should be buffed by allowing both weapons to attack the enemy, instead of just the main weapon (I'm not sure if this is fixed, as I noticed long ago EfE and Whirlwind would only use the main hand to attack.)
Anyhow, Whirlwind should utilize both hands to attack to justify the -30% hands eff nerf if consecutively attacking the same enemy. I just wish that it has a priority to non-targeted enemies first, instead of randomly hitting anyone. Because EfE requires you to be perfectly positioned to receive the buffs, but upon using Whirlwind you might end up somewhere that no enemy has EfE so you suddenly lost the buffs and you're about to get smacked by a bunch of enemies you haven't damaged enough to weaken them. All of these need to be addressed, otherwise Whirlwind is just useless.
EfE may be finicky to use, but I noticed if you place two EfE on two enemies, not only do you get double bonuses but the basic attack feature seems to get bugged out a little... This needs some fixing I think.
Basically what happens is you attack one of the enemies with EfE, and proc the basic attack on the second enemy with EfE. That basic attack then procs another basic attack on the first enemy. I think the chain stops there, but I also think that chain shouldn't exist in the first place. The EfE proc should only happen after the main target is attacked, not for every target that gets attacked during the turn.
I'm not entirely sure about the EfE chain thing, the thing is I've tried letting 3 enemies surround me to check this, but usually by that time the first 2 enemies are half-dead, when that 3rd enemy joins, I literally murder the first 2 enemies with just EfE proc attacks... Also, I noticed the log is not entirely consistent with the order of events. For example, I might see:
Restless Dead attacks for A damage.
Jorgrim attacks Restless Dead for B damage.
Jorgrim attacks Restless Dead for C damage.
Jorgrim attacks Restless Peasant for E damage. (I presume this is the EfE proc attack.)
Restless Peasant dies.
Jorgrim attacks Restless Peasant for Y damage. (I presume this is also the EfE proc attack, possibly the offhand hit.)
Jorgrim attacks Restless Dead for Z damage. (I presume this is the second EfE proc attack, which I actually consider it to be a bug right now.)
Restless Dead dies.
In this log, there are only two enemies: Restless Dead and Restless Peasant. But the latter already died, so why did the log say I attack it for Y damage? I've encountered this a lot as I try to read the log to figure out what is going on, this actually makes it very hard to work out the exact mechanics of EfE, or anything that hits for a huge string of attacks. And visually speaking, during the battle the animation is too damn quick for me to pick up anything.
Anyway, I think EfE basic attacks (the ones that proc off the main attack) also use two hands, which is great. If it is not already using two hands, then it should be. Otherwise the first problem we DW players come across is the main hand weapon's durability wears down quicker than the other. It is just an annoyance really.
I still don't think Whirlwind should proc counterattacks, even if it is just one counterattack per turn (meaning if you consecutively hit someone, you still only get countered once by that enemy). The reason for this is Whirlwind used to confer 5% dodge in exchange for -5% hands eff, per target. That 5% dodge is gone now, which means if you get countered for full damage and you whirled through a group of counterattackers, then you're basically half-dead by the time you're done, stuck in a place where you have no EfE buff to rely on.
Jorgrim uses Execution and attacks Restless Dead for 58 damage.
Restless Dead dies.
Jorgrim attacks Restless Dead and lands a crit for 128 damage.
This doesn't really make any sense... Did my offhand basic attack make that 128 damage and killed the Restless Dead first? Or did the 58 damage kill the Restless Dead, but the game treats the Restless Dead as being still alive (sorry, wordplay not intentional lol!) so my offhand attack damage literally got calculated assuming the enemy had 0 protection and all?
Because there is no way my offhand attack can crit for that damage. This tends to happen when I crit on the final blow, I'm not sure if the log is out of order when listing the events, or there is some weird mechanic going on here.
I mean, I've had double crits before, on both hands. For some reason that second crit usually hits crazy hard. Like, if the first crit is 128 damage, the second crit can be listed as a whopping 250 or something.
In short, you can rack up crazy dual wielding damage on Execution (and Cut Through) against Restless.
To come back to Whirlwind, if it protects you against one counterattack per enemy, it will be relatively safe to use against groups, or even single enemies that aren't particularly good at counterattacking. That's already everything that's not a brigand, and then some. Especially if used together with your suggestion that target selection should prioritise new enemies, it should provide some pretty decent counter protection. The hard counter would be, aside from move resistance, a single enemy with good counterattacking, because you'd only get protected against one.
Basically I want the mechanics to promoted reckless and irresponsible use of the skill. To that end, yes, it's regrettable that the dodge bonus is gone. There should be some defensive buff at the end, to tempt into aggressive use versus groups. It shouldn't scale off the number of strikes though, that's a bit too random and you're already incentivised enough to get hands eff as high as you can before popping Whirlwind. How about you get a free EfE hit if you end up adjacent to at least one living enemy?
Does O/D Tactics wear off after 5 hits made/received? Or do they drop to stack 1 and then stay there until the duration expires? I have no idea if counterattacks will drop Offensive Tactics stacks. But just reading the skill tooltip I actually don't like what they are right now. There are skills like Brace For Impact or Flexible Defense that outright overwhelm Defensive Tactics in terms of usefulness, unfortunately. I really don't see the point in increasing Defensive Tactic's duration by number of enemies visible when 4 attacks will drop that buff stack from 5 to 1 (one single enemy with Flurry is enough).
Yeah, to reiterate, my Whirlwind suggestion is that you get to ignore the first counterattack any enemy makes - so you will be immune if you spread out your attacks against enough enemies.
I'm not entirely sure. I remember them lingering for quite a bit at one stack, but from the description there's no reason they should. Either way they're bad picks for DW at the moment.
They win out against BfI and Flexible Defense with longer duration, at least for non-DW, in my opinion, but it also depends on if you want to go further in Warfare or AC. That's one reason I'd like to see them buffed for DW, because the high tier Warfare talents have interesting interactions with DW builds, either Armor Crusher to plug a late game weakness or Thirst for Battle/Against the Odds/Final Push to work together with the berserk stuff.