Let's talk about the dual wield tree

[Plaje]

As a dual wield character, I am finding the athletics tree a better investment than the dual wield tree. The only useful ability in the dual wield tree I can see is dual wield training that gives you an extra attack when using weapon skills. I'd like to also take concentration (and may do that eventually) but that requires taking flurry skill which I find to be very lackluster.

Eventually it would be nice to get whirlwind, but looking at the investment I'd have to put into incredibly bad skills to get there just really means I'm probably not going to get it. Enough for everyone has potential but just doesn't quite cut it IMO, you don't generally want to be fighting multiple enemies at one time unless you really outlevel them, and even then you're just taking unnecessary damage to your equipment.

There's a lot of other abilities in armor, warfare, and athletics which are just better than this tree in almost every way, so I can't see any reason to invest in the dual wielding tree on a dual wielding character, aside from dual wield training.

I think some of these skills either need to be reworked, or buffed, or at the very least remove the requirements to take some of the really bad skills to get to the bottom of the tree.

[Quillbear]

I feel like the problem with DW is that its either trash or OP. As it stands DW only starts to feel good once it doesn't matter any more, because by the time you can actually invest into any of the DW tree you're already lvl 11+ and have access to good equipment AND you don't really have any spare skill points. Realistically, if you're planning on not getting totally wrecked you have to be lvl like 18+ before you're down the DW tree. Any time I try to DW early/early-mid game it seems to just be an exercise in futility. Totally useless early game. Shields/bucklers op, they don't even need to have their tree invested in AT ALL, just slap the bad boy on and go wreck the early game.

[Plaje]

I think you're right. Even at level 18+ though I can't say I would choose to go down the DW tree as opposed to further down armor, or warfare, or athletics. Those other trees give you so much more for your investment than the DW tree does.

[duckman]

I'm pretty sure Concentration is one of the first major skills in the DW tree you're supposed to go for. Not taking it is like skipping the stance from a weapon tree.

[Plaje]

There are only three skills I actually want in the DW tree, and don't misunderstand me, concentration is one of them. But I have trouble justifying a point in flurry (which is terrible) to get it, and even then the drawbacks and quirks of using concentration make it less appealing that it first appears to be. For one point I'd take it, for two points... maybe if I can't find something better in another tree.

[Wayfinder]

Have you tried it post-patch? My current character is dual wielding from the start and I can't say he feels weak or underperforming. Flurry is one of your main damage dealers early, and it grows even stronger with more DW passives, Concentration and so on.

Originally posted by Juiol:

I feel like the problem with DW is that its either trash or OP. As it stands DW only starts to feel good once it doesn't matter any more, because by the time you can actually invest into any of the DW tree you're already lvl 11+ and have access to good equipment AND you don't really have any spare skill points. Realistically, if you're planning on not getting totally wrecked you have to be lvl like 18+ before you're down the DW tree. Any time I try to DW early/early-mid game it seems to just be an exercise in futility. Totally useless early game. Shields/bucklers op, they don't even need to have their tree invested in AT ALL, just slap the bad boy on and go wreck the early game.

It seems you're sharing your pre-patch experiences, as shields no longer give as much as they used to without any skill tree investments.

[Plaje]

Originally posted by Wayfinder:

Have you tried it post-patch? My current character is dual wielding from the start and I can't say he feels weak or underperforming. Flurry is one of your main damage dealers early, and it grows even stronger with more DW passives, Concentration and so on.

My current lv12 character (same as every other patch basically) is a permadeath DW daggers character. I have a couple others from suggested people that I switch to from time to time as well, but DW daggers is the one I keep coming back to, and is what I am using right now. The other builds people have suggested I try are objectively better, but I digress. I have one point in dual wield training and the rest in daggers, athletics, and warfare.

I love dual wield training, but find flurry to be really bad, particularly against armored enemies. 12 energy for an attack that does on paper 3/2 the damage of a basic attack, increases my odds of triggering a counter, and if the enemy has armor it is doing even less damage. I'd rather use my energy on a real skill from the weapons trees, or a stance/maneuver, or just save my energy and use a basic attack.

Concentration is ok, but having to go through flurry to get it is a big minus, and while I could get use out of deflect, my character isn't really built for blocking (I still might take deflect anyways down the road).

The other skills in the DW tree all want me to either be half dead, or fighting multiple enemies, none of which are great strategies for remaining alive. Peak performance makes a lot more sense to me than berserk tradition or dying fervor, as a comparison. If I'm at 50% hp I'm probably already running away.

I'd love to invest in the tree to be full DW/daggers build, but there is so much great stuff in the armor, athletics, and warfare trees that I can't think of any reason to skip those trees to invest in the DW tree.

[sev_prince]

I will definitely try dual wield for my next character.

[BornSvg]

TLDR.
two weapons = handles attacks from two people, maybe more.
athletics = very controlling, for single target. stuns and staggars work good with maces. why? because if someone runs at you with a giant mallet, doing acrobats, you can bet that angle of attack is going to be precise and thus powerful in its own way.

[hottnova75]

Umm when you get two critical hits with the axes, you know why your dual wielding.

Also every time it is your turn, you are rolling for an extra hit. The more you put into it , the more devastating it gets.

[Punful Guy]

Dual wield daggers does seem a little weak early and mid game. Try maces or axes

[Plaje]

The thread isn't necessarily about dual wielding or about dual daggers being bad, I've found dual daggers to have a nice degree of flexibility that other melee builds don't, despite being weaker in some ways than some other dw builds. And others seem happy with other dual weapon builds.

It's really just the dw tree I find lacking compared to other trees. Maybe that's because I play permadeath, but I don't really like requirements tied to low hp or to specifically multiple opponents at one time.

[Wayfinder]

Originally posted by Plaje:

My current lv12 character (same as every other patch basically) is a permadeath DW daggers character. I have a couple others from suggested people that I switch to from time to time as well, but DW daggers is the one I keep coming back to, and is what I am using right now. The other builds people have suggested I try are objectively better, but I digress. I have one point in dual wield training and the rest in daggers, athletics, and warfare.

I love dual wield training, but find flurry to be really bad, particularly against armored enemies. 12 energy for an attack that does on paper 3/2 the damage of a basic attack, increases my odds of triggering a counter, and if the enemy has armor it is doing even less damage. I'd rather use my energy on a real skill from the weapons trees, or a stance/maneuver, or just save my energy and use a basic attack.

Concentration is ok, but having to go through flurry to get it is a big minus, and while I could get use out of deflect, my character isn't really built for blocking (I still might take deflect anyways down the road).

The other skills in the DW tree all want me to either be half dead, or fighting multiple enemies, none of which are great strategies for remaining alive. Peak performance makes a lot more sense to me than berserk tradition or dying fervor, as a comparison. If I'm at 50% hp I'm probably already running away.

I'd love to invest in the tree to be full DW/daggers build, but there is so much great stuff in the armor, athletics, and warfare trees that I can't think of any reason to skip those trees to invest in the DW tree.

I'm currently dual wielding axes.

The thing about Flurry is that it shouln't be treated like your normal attack skill (in a sense that it's always better than an autoattack). It requires some set up to offset its innate penalties and become absolutely devastating. It pairs very well with the Concentration - usually I open with Concentration, 1-2 weapon skills to gain some stacks and then finish off with Flurry. That way not only you deal much more damage, but also are more likely to get some Hands Efficiency bonuses for the next turn.

Enough for Everyone is quite useful when you position yourself in a way that makes the second enemy enter the combat a few turns later, when the first enemy is already battered. You can then "Enough for Everyone" the first enemy to finish him off with bonus attacks, and start focusing the second one. That way you get solid defensive boost for a few turns, HP/MP regen upon killing the first enemy (if "Unstoppable" is unlocked) and don't risk too much by fighting two enemies at once as one's already half-dead.

As for counters - "War Cry" or throwing nets helps with that a lot. War Cry's Confusion -20% Counter debuff pretty much guarantees you won't be countered by most of the normal enemies.

I'm currently at Brynn, and so far it works incredibly well.

[Plaje]

Well here's some math (done in excel):

Without concentration you are doing 28% more damage than a basic attack, until armor modifies it, using flurry.

With concentration and three preceding weapon attacks (4 stacks) you are doing up to 85% more damage than a basic attack, before it gets reduced by armor.

If I used, for example, double lunge, I am doing 84% more damage than a basic attack, plus some extra body part damage, with zero stacks of concentration, and those hits get reduced less by armor because they are three larger hits. That is without using concentration at all.

Unless this math is wrong or unless you think your daggers tree is horribly broken (my experience is that there are many better builds than daggers), flurry is very weak.

This is on a level 12 character with all points in agility btw. Without the extra 5% hands eff from 10 agility the numbers get worse for flurry. And I don't find myself in very many melee fights that last longer than 3 turns to do what you are describing.

I want to use it but it's just meh.

[jotwebe]

Originally posted by Plaje:

If I used, for example, double lunge, I am doing 84% more damage than a basic attack, plus some extra body part damage, with zero stacks of concentration, and those hits get reduced less by armor because they are three larger hits. That is without using concentration at all.

Double Lunge is one of the strongest attacks in the game.

Originally posted by Plaje:

Unless this math is wrong or unless you think your daggers tree is horribly broken (my experience is that there are many better builds than daggers), flurry is very weak.

See above. Double Lunge's power is mitigated by daggers (the weapons, not the skill tree) being kinda bad.

Cut Through, for example, does +10% Damage, +20% Armor Penetration, and +50% Armor Damage, with +15% extra damage per degree of bleeding or injury.

Originally posted by Plaje:

This is on a level 12 character with all points in agility btw. Without the extra 5% hands eff from 10 agility the numbers get worse for flurry. And I don't find myself in very many melee fights that last longer than 3 turns to do what you are describing.

I want to use it but it's just meh.

It's good to remove Elusiveness stacks, or to supercharge passives that proc off weapon hits, like Dazing Strikes (Maces), Reprisal (Axes) or Weakening Jabs (Daggers). It'll also give you a fat bonus to hands efficiency on your following attacks.

[Tato]

well yeah dw isn't really all too great but it's a lot better now than it was before this patch even with the gutting of whirlwind.