On the survival skill tree

[AsianFood]

Iterating my old point, I think only one or two skills in this skill tree will be worth putting points into. The fact that early game you're really squishy hence you can't miss out on putting skill points into combat skills for your build, I think that there is no room for utility skills.

And for late game, with the amount of reward you get each contract, having survival skills seems trivial when food and shelter is no longer a problem - unless of course the skill introduce a mechanic to save game check point in the wild.

And considering in the future we also have alchemy and possibly crafting, maybe these utility skills should use a different type of skill points instead of sharing the same point resources as combat skill trees?

For example, start your level with 2 sp and 1 usp (utility skill point), you still get sp the normal rate but usp every 2-3 levels. This way players gets to roleplay their character (be an alchemist, huntsman, wildman or dwarven blacksmith) while also not getting their ass handed by enemies due to investing in utility skills instead of combat skills, while also make these skills more meaningful and impact early game without the worries of losing too much practical combat ability.

I really hope to see what's the dev's take on this.

[brown29knight]

I agree with this. Money is no issue late game, and I'd rather buy whatever alchemy or traps the other skill trees can make, then spend my points on skills that offer no advantage to my survival in combat.

Perhaps alchemy will let you do things like poison your weapon, and sabatoge will let you make better traps then you can buy... if so (If you can't simply purchase these benefits) then there MAY be a point in investing combat skills in them... But I'd rather a passive that helps me every swing then a skill that lets a couple hits do more damage, then has to be reapplied at cost. Better be one huge bonus to be worth it over -3% fumble or +3% acc.

As is, I'll likely only take survival on one character, to get the achievement... and then never touch it again.

[Lava]

I agree that you are squishy early game, but as wayfinder himself has stated previously (I can't find it now, may or may not have said this.); you don't need to take survival early game, nor will you cripple yourself if you take some skills when you hit level 6.

Also, it's really too early to judge since we aren't even close to what the final product of the game will represent. People who dislike the roguelike elements (despite buying a roguelike game) will almost exclusively use halts to save scum. Yet it's still too early to discredit the skill entirely since we don't even know how the Fatigue System will come into play.

brown29knight eredeti hozzászólása:

Perhaps alchemy will let you do things like poison your weapon, and sabatoge will let you make better traps then you can buy... if so (If you can't simply purchase these benefits)

Just to give my two cents on this, sabotage will likely be a stealthy/rogue skill tree. Turning off lights or sxht like that.

[Maloney]

TOME handles their multiple skill trees in that sort of way with each tree getting a respective number of skill points be level depending on how much affinity the class has for that tree. The new iteration of ADOM like so as well. Given its already proven in other games i have no doubt a system like this would work.

However: Stoneshards headline selling point is (or at least was for me at the time) a classless leveling system. Moving to a game archtype where the skill trees or categories each have a set of assigned point per level is a step closer to a class based leveling system for me.

I would be more inclined to think something close to the FFX advanced skill tree, if anyone remembers that. Say instead of getting 1 skill point per level you instead get 5 skill point but the skills/abilities we currently spend a point on are 5 points/nodes into the tree. with the first 4 points being populated by empty nodes just to take up space and drive up the points cost of the ability and maybe some taking on the passive bonuses currently conjoined with the active skill. So you still get 1 ability and the same passive in 5 points that you currently get for 1. Why the extra steps then? so that when you go across to the survival (or some other less desirable) skill tree, you can get an ability spending only 2 or 3 points. maybe you can pick up 2 skills per level on this tree if it's laid out like that.

A skill tree structured in this way gives an extra aspect with which to balance ability value and cost vs benefit thats far less heavy handed than what our current tree allows for. Instead of just nerfing an ability that's too good they could make it take points from more than 1 level instead or cheapen the cost of a handy but not essential ability that gets no play.

[Degaden]

Maloney eredeti hozzászólása:

I would be more inclined to think something close to the FFX advanced skill tree, if anyone remembers that.

I remember, but that would also incline that your character can reach an infinitiy amount of levels. That will never happen.

Maloney eredeti hozzászólása:

Say instead of getting 1 skill point per level you instead get 5 skill point but the skills/abilities we currently spend a point on are 5 points/nodes into the tree. with the first 4 points being populated by empty nodes just to take up space and drive up the points cost of the ability and maybe some taking on the passive bonuses currently conjoined with the active skill. So you still get 1 ability and the same passive in 5 points that you currently get for 1. Why the extra steps then? so that when you go across to the survival (or some other less desirable) skill tree, you can get an ability spending only 2 or 3 points. maybe you can pick up 2 skills per level on this tree if it's laid out like that.

NIce idea, but there is still the problem with the infinity amounts of level you can gain in FFX. That will never happen in Stoneshard. So people would try to avoid gaining attributes and try to gain Skills instead + if you completely played FFX and know that the regular Skill Tree had a greater potential in comparison to the advanced Skill Tree you might also know, that the regular Tablet could be used as shortcuts for gaining more powerful Skills. Furthermore if you also know that there were players who played FFX without leveling up and focus their fights on using Rikku you also know, that people here wouid also try to use some ingame tactics for powerplay. Nice idea, but nope. Just nope. I am sorry to say this. Nice idea, bute nope.

[Maloney]

I think you've taken my comparison to FFX a bit too literally. Back the idea off a bit and limit the comparison to the parts i mention specifically without taking them in the context of FF10 and reasses.

[Degaden]

To be honest. Your explanation was a bit strenous. So the parts of FFX were better to imagine in comparison to the rest of your explanation, but I will give it another try.

Well your idea is not bad. Do you think people would use their points to release Survival Skills? In the end people who are complaining about it are focused on powerplay. The don't see the fun of "unnecessary" stuff. Like I said. It is a good idea, but just nope. XD

No for serious. It is a good idea. The Devs most likely won't do it, because they like their system and it would take a whole lot of additional work to reimplement a new system and a whole lot of additional work to rebalance the game. Besides that I think that such an improvement will come, when the game is in a satisfactional way successful. So pls donate more money to the devs.

[laveley]

I agree with the OP.

Using skills points of combat skills in utility skills will always be a waste both early game (when you really need the combat skill) and late game (when the utility skills will eventually become nearly useless).

The obvious solution is spliting the point gain between combat and utility skills.

[funkmonster7]

Well, the survival skill tree does have some good passive buffs. Like, dropping enemy crit chance in half. Without seeing the full tree, it's hard to make a judgement call. But... my expectation is it isn't going to be worth it, unfortunately. Maybe 1 SP. There's a cooking skill tree as well and frankly, I don't think it will be useful either. Probably a hard skip. Maybe not once the health system is added, but as I said in the Survival thread; kinda hard to tell without endgame enemies in sight right now.

[Mepholar]

I personally am not concerned with being hamstrung in what SP are available as well as having being put into a position where I feel forced to choose between combat skills or utility skills. But that is also because I enjoy the leveling grind, don't feel a need to rush down a tree for later skills, and focus on adapting what I already have for whatever situation I'm facing. I also don't expect to always succeed on clearing a dungeon if I sign up for it (though currently I do), and look forward to situations where I pocket the goods instead of turning them in for a contract, cut and run when I get blind sided by an ambush and hopefully survive, and get stranded in the woods starving and dehydrated, or some other form of mental anguish that is slowly running the risk of killing me before safety. I also form a rough idea of the skills I want to muck about in for my next character/ play when I start the character but I'm the sort that enjoys the journey to get there more than finally reaching there and playing around with all the skills/ new toys at once. (I do enjoy that too, but dislike how a lot of games push a faux rpg grind just to get to that state now-a-days to the point people just ignore everything before then/ feel like game doesn't start until after that.

So... skills that allow that play in future releases are what I'm hoping for from utility skills (or lack thereof after they're properly implemented.)

Anyhow as to your skill node system, it sounds like what is in Grim Dawn. In that game you spend points to unlock skills on the tree, and even level up skills you unlock, or you purchase a class level to raise what access to skills you have (as well as general attribute bonuses). These were typically gated every 5 to 10 levels and you had 2 classes that each scaled to 30+ you can allocate pts into. (Some skills also required investing at least 1 pt in an earlier skill in the tree too.)

So... if I'm understanding what you're saying... how is that much different than attributes per level in Stone Shard, and higher attributes unlocking a higher tiers in a skill access; often to multiple trees?

As is it feels like you're wanting to double down on attributes as something to augment combat as well as spend them how you want with skills in a secondary; unrelated way.
I know before the last update the Stone Shard devs only had skill tree access associated with treatise, but now they allow for multiple ways so this request/ appeal/ idea of yours seems redundant to me.

1) What interactions as they are currently designed are you displeased with?
2) Even though over half the morale system isn't implemented, several of the skills aren't implemented, friendly npcs facilitating trade/ quest roles in the world are yet to be added, hostile npcs with different game play kits to try out new builds are likely to be thought up and added, as well as several of the towns, npcs, factions, etc. do you feel this game won't iterate with the addition of more systems and instead just scale up the existing content to create more of the same with power creep mixed in?
Do you think they will but think they're missing an underlining issue? (This is basically what I'm asking with the previous question about interactions but extending it to how you perceive new systems too)
Do you think they are going to add to much in and lose sight of what makes the game fun? (And if this is your concern what do you see game play for this game is?)

Hopefully none of the above was confusingly worded or had an air of being self-righteous, etc. I mainly just wanted to share my pov (and why I think its a good thing) as well as understand yours, because I feel like maybe we want different things from the game, and if so I want to understand what you are looking for more.

[brown29knight]

So I have taken another look into survival, and am forced to change SOME of my opinions, mostly based on the positioning of skills in the survival tree:

Campfire:

We get this free. No clue why it is survival instead of a basic skill, but whatever.

Make a Halt:

Not worth a skill point. Devs specifically state that you can buy these sleeping bags, and that they use pelts to make, meaning you need to hunt to make them, and they cut into your profits to do so.

Skinning->Pathfinder->Huntsmaster:

This tree may be worth it for an archer. Skinning lets you get money easy, Pathfinder gives +1 Vision (absolutely worth it for an archer) Huntsmaster gives +3 Acc, and huge damage and crit vs. beasts, as well as rare material skinning. The vision and accuracy would be the reasons to take this for an archer, the money is just a side benefit.

Cauterize Wounds -> First Aid -> Ever Vigilant: As cool as these are, I can't see taking them. Cauterize wounds is only useful vs. bleeding, which bandages can easily and cheaply handle. First aid only helps set injury, which splints can do, or leeches/healing salves can do by repairing the limb. The solutions to these problems are too easy to warrant use of a skill point. Ever vigilant is NICE, but not worth the 3 total skill points to get. (5% dodge, -5% enemy Acc is super nice for dodge builds, and -1/2 enemy crit % is powerful, but given the 2 sub-par prereqs, I can't see many characters wanting it. Perhaps a DW/dodge build as it's last 3 points? I still suspect you'd do better investing them in combat mastery or athletics skills, but I'm not theory crafting that far out.

Will to Survive-> Adaptability/Austerity: (Will to survive unlocks both) Will to survive is a cleanse for all negatives for 10 turns. Cauterize wounds, First aid, and more, rolled into one. (I have to wonder if this also removes mancatcher nets and negative seize initiative) Also heals you a little. This is a great "get out of trouble" skill, I could see using it, especally as it seems to have no prereq in the skill tree. (so all you need to invest is one point) Adaptability, unfortunately, goes right back into dealing with things easily handled with cheap curatives, specifically pain and intoxication. It could save your life from poisoning, but unless there is another plague of snakes, that is too rare to merit a skillpoint. Austerity, on the other hand, increases pain threshold, and gives pain resist (as well as increasing hunger and thirst tresholds) Making it an easy way to make pain matter less in fights. I could see an investment in Will to Survive for most characters, and Austerity for those who melee a lot and often wind up in pain. Adaptability is not likely to be useful enough to take. For someone who DOES take both, resting at a campfire increases morale and sanity, giving you a way to easily heal your mental stats.

[laveley]

brown29knight eredeti hozzászólása:

Skinning->Pathfinder->Huntsmaster:

This tree may be worth it for an archer. Skinning lets you get money easy, Pathfinder gives +1 Vision (absolutely worth it for an archer) Huntsmaster gives +3 Acc, and huge damage and crit vs. beasts, as well as rare material skinning. The vision and accuracy would be the reasons to take this for an archer, the money is just a side benefit.

Taking this path will probably only be worth it if you want to experience a pixelated "hunting grounds" game. I doubt thats the experience most players want with this game (but i reckon someone will probably want it). Hunting should be a side activity and dedicatting 3 skills to it, with little side benefits, simply isnt worth it if you dont want to go out of your way and ignore a lot of the "main game" content for a large portion of your time to focus in a hunting minigame.

that being said, will to survive indeed look like a great skill and maybe can be worth to take with basically any character.

But thats a problem either if you think about it; a whole skill tree that the vast majority of players will take only one skill, because it is that good, stinks unbalance and the devs will probably nerf it to oblivion if that comes to be the case and as soon as they realise it.

[brown29knight]

laveley eredeti hozzászólása:

Taking this path will probably only be worth it if you want to experience a pixelated "hunting grounds" game. I doubt thats the experience most players want with this game (but i reckon someone will probably want it). Hunting should be a side activity and dedicatting 3 skills to it, with little side benefits, simply isnt worth it if you dont want to go out of your way and ignore a lot of the "main game" content for a large portion of your time to focus in a hunting minigame.

that being said, will to survive indeed look like a great skill and maybe can be worth to take with basically any character.

But thats a problem either if you think about it; a whole skill tree that the vast majority of players will take only one skill, because it is that good, stinks unbalance and the devs will probably nerf it to oblivion if that comes to be the case and as soon as they realise it.

An archer really benefits from the +1 Vision. End game bows have ranges beyond your vision, and perception raising increases both at the same time, so that basically means that Pathfinder lets you shoot from one tile further away. That is important, because if you get enough range (15+) you can actually hit foes from so far away that they cannot see you, and so they never aggro you, letting you take them down with ease. Accuracy is also really needed for archers, so 3% more is a good thing. The hunting is just a side benefit in my opinion.

Agreed, Will to Survive is just asking to be nerfed, at least if it is as powerful as we are lead to believe. We will have to see how much it heals, and if it cleanses EVERYTHING, or just injury/pain/hunger/thirst/intoxication/bad trip/bleed. Could be it isn't worth taking at all... we will have to see.

That said, I suspect they would nerf it, not by changing the skill, but by flipping that section of the skill tree, so you'd need to take Adaptability/Austerity to unlock it.

[Degaden]

brown29knight eredeti hozzászólása:

So I have taken another look into survival, and am forced to change SOME of my opinions, mostly based on the positioning of skills in the survival tree:

Make a Halt:

Not worth a skill point. Devs specifically state that you can buy these sleeping bags, and that they use pelts to make, meaning you need to hunt to make them, and they cut into your profits to do so.

Same, with a reminder of two other points. I think that this skill is kind of an experiment, before they start with the real crafting. Second: It's made for people crying for more safe points. It's not really necessary, but it might stop some people from crying without a pause for not having enough safe points. If they cry now, than devs know, that those people are just plain stuipid.

brown29knight eredeti hozzászólása:

Skinning->Pathfinder->Huntsmaster:

This tree may be worth it for an archer. Skinning lets you get money easy, Pathfinder gives +1 Vision (absolutely worth it for an archer) Huntsmaster gives +3 Acc, and huge damage and crit vs. beasts, as well as rare material skinning. The vision and accuracy would be the reasons to take this for an archer, the money is just a side benefit.

I am still not sure if you find treasure rooms in dungeons in relation to examination and Perception or if another sub value like vision plays a role too. If Vision does get counted into it, it would be worth it for dungeons too.

brown29knight eredeti hozzászólása:

Cauterize Wounds -> First Aid -> Ever Vigilant: As cool as these are, I can't see taking them. Cauterize wounds is only useful vs. bleeding, which bandages can easily and cheaply handle. First aid only helps set injury, which splints can do, or leeches/healing salves can do by repairing the limb. The solutions to these problems are too easy to warrant use of a skill point. Ever vigilant is NICE, but not worth the 3 total skill points to get. (5% dodge, -5% enemy Acc is super nice for dodge builds, and -1/2 enemy crit % is powerful, but given the 2 sub-par prereqs, I can't see many characters wanting it. Perhaps a DW/dodge build as it's last 3 points? I still suspect you'd do better investing them in combat mastery or athletics skills, but I'm not theory crafting that far out.

another point, which comes to my mind is inventory space. A lot of people also cry about not having enough space in your inventory and to be honest. My inventory is also packed full with medical stuff just in case of cases. So it would safe some space. Besides that I could take more "Henbane" with me, because Cauterize increases pain, I believe, so it can be connected, with herbal extract intoxication and Battle Rage. On the other way First Aid means you already have some pain, if the pain Resistence wasn't raised, so the same tactic can be used here too.

brown29knight eredeti hozzászólása:

Will to Survive-> Adaptability/Austerity: (Will to survive unlocks both) Will to survive is a cleanse for all negatives for 10 turns. Cauterize wounds, First aid, and more, rolled into one. (I have to wonder if this also removes mancatcher nets and negative seize initiative) Also heals you a little. This is a great "get out of trouble" skill, I could see using it, especally as it seems to have no prereq in the skill tree. (so all you need to invest is one point) Adaptability, unfortunately, goes right back into dealing with things easily handled with cheap curatives, specifically pain and intoxication. It could save your life from poisoning, but unless there is another plague of snakes, that is too rare to merit a skillpoint. Austerity, on the other hand, increases pain threshold, and gives pain resist (as well as increasing hunger and thirst tresholds) Making it an easy way to make pain matter less in fights. I could see an investment in Will to Survive for most characters, and Austerity for those who melee a lot and often wind up in pain. Adaptability is not likely to be useful enough to take. For someone who DOES take both, resting at a campfire increases morale and sanity, giving you a way to easily heal your mental stats.

Will to survive is especially useful, because you can't use all those medics at once. Adaptability - the same point mentioned some sentences before. It safes Inventory space and if someone really like to use Battle Rage through Henbane, than it can automatically work against the Intoxication.

Austerity also works perfectly with the Henbane - Battle Rage tactic, because using it strongly reduces Morale and Sanity.

All in all I have to say, that I now really like this Skill Tree, because it brings extra Money throught better Materials from Animals and saves a lot of inventory space. I waste a real lot of time cleaning my World Maps from enemy drops, so I will really love this Skill Tree. Unfortunenately when I try to accomplish all actual achievements, especially those of the combat Skill Tree's than I am have most likely not enough spare SP to fully use it. In the end I am not 100% if that is even right, so I am still excited to use this Skill Tree.

[Maloney]

Mepholar eredeti hozzászólása:

....how is that much different than attributes per level in Stone Shard, and higher attributes unlocking a higher tiers in a skill access; often to multiple trees?

The difference is that with more skill points (i'm not talking about attribute points) per level and nodes leading up to skills you can tweak the value of each skill without tweaking the skill.

Combat skills that are quite strong will take a whole level worth of skill points to acquire and weaker skills or noncombat ones wouldn't have to be worth a whole level. Maybe some really strong or overpowered skills get balanced by requiring 2 levels worth of skill points in a later version of the game. the flexibility is there.

The point is when you weight your next offensive spell against making a campfire or crafting a bedroll its no wonder we're seeing all the feedback to the tune of "skip survival". Its obviously not the same value to the player. So change the cost to the player. Its still a choice to put skill points in the survival tree or not and totally up to the player but when they make that decision they don't have to weigh fireball vs skinning they can instead weigh fireball vs skinning AND cauterize wounds for example.

The devs have the ability to tweak the cost:benefit of a skill with much more finesse with a system like that.

The advantage this has over getting points in separate skill groups is that the player still gets to choose whether or not they put skills in those groups at all with a variable skill cost based system.