Dual Wield Berserkers

[funkmonster7]

Just asking out of curiosity; how many of you play this build right now? I've just started an Arna DW daggers build (gosh it took me ages to 'respec' her as she has almost nothing to use at the start other than Combat Mastery tree). She died like 10 times so far, even with her character trait (I guess a few % of damage reduction doesn't matter if she gets hit 60% of the time for huuuge damages due to 0 prot).

She actually killed more enemies with a bow and arrow and Taking Aim skill, than with dual daggers at the moment. She's level 7 right now.

How do you guys build your berserkers? And which character do you use? What weapons do you use? And lastly, are they actually viable?

I made a Jonna and got her to level 2, mostly by fire bolting enemies. After some thinking I think she won't cut it as a mage/berserker hybrid even though her starting skill trees seem to imply she might be able to do it. Might have to ignore Arcane Lore trait if you make her a full berserker though, she might be able to Stone Armor up but that's kinda pointless if she's dodging hits most of the time. Unless she uses Stone Armor while she is immobilized or staggered.

[DacianDraco]

I have played in the past Dual Dagger VELMIR, Dual Mace JORGRIM, Dual Sword ARNA, Dual Axe DIRWIN and they all were viable. I chose to build them like this by spreading out the weapons used while taking in account their traits, and thus in a sense evening them out as best as i could. Because for ex Velmir's trait is pretty useless for dual wielding but daggers are the best weapon i could use, and Jorgrim's trait is most useful for dual wielding but maces do low dmg, still great utility from the random Daze and Stun, my Arna sped up kills with random bleeds, my Dirwin's axes did random bodypart dmg and thus targets received extra dmg next turns, etc. They felt different enough and i enjoyed playing them. If you are looking for the absolute best i think you figured out from what i said that daggers on Jorgrim would be top, Axes being second best, they work too damage wise they are just more NRG hungry.

And as a speculation on my part i think Jonna starts with dual wielding because of the future Wand tree, which could be used in the off hand and with main hand dmg from Dagger, in a possible Venomancer build. I imagine Wands being more a debuff applying weapon not a one handed staff used for casting, but who knows maybe my speculation is totally wrong.

Now getting back to dual wielding, besides getting Vitality to 20 (this is a personal preference, helps me to not get as many injuries and it's NRG regen without rest) i put all points in Agility for dodge and Crit Chance (all weapons have extra "ability" on Crit hit, which i exemplified above when talking about the "random" for each character). Then Enchanted my Armor pieces and Jewelry with Dodge Chance and weapons with Life Leech, not useful every time but when you do get hit you get hit hard and it's important. And as gear if you don't have the supporter pack with Hired Blade Cowl which is fine to use then get a Novice Mage Cowl and later replace it with Exquisite Cowl when your reputation increases. For body Elven Garment then Skaar Garment, which is key and the biggest boost. You can use Ruby Sash or Knightly Girdle both are fine, and from the start of the game get Leather Bracers and Town Shoes. And in the late game or whenever you go fight the Troll be sure to get a couple of Silver Ruby Rings, and i prefer the Hand Amulet from Abbey on all melee builds, but for Dual Wielders it's actually the best.

Stay longer in Osbrook and do more contracts to get to Respect and get the upgrade gear i said from the Tailor. Also it's not worth bringing back to sell stuff that is not valuable because you need little gold for gear, thou you still need some gold for Medicine, mostly Vivifying Essence and i'd recommend always to take the two Hornet Honeys from Trapper and a couple of Antitoxins from the Herbalist when you are going to the Brigand or Shadow Covenant dungeons, Crimson Covenant one is very easy for anyone imo. You don't need to but it's fun and you have to do something with gold anyway. I think that's all. Oh Stone Armor is excellent, but needs more turn investment with Runic Boulder creation. So just use Offensive Tactic and Seize Initiative from Combat Mastery and from Athletics tree the Dash and Elusiveness defensively and Mighty Kick (low NRG cost) to boost Seize Initiative and the occasional Stun if position allows it and occasional denial of stuff like Mighty Swing or other enemy abilities. Actually done now. Enjoy.

[funkmonster7]

Originally posted by DacianDraco:

I have played in the past Dual Dagger VELMIR, Dual Mace JORGRIM, Dual Sword ARNA, Dual Axe DIRWIN and they all were viable. I chose to build them like this by spreading out the weapons used while taking in account their traits, and thus in a sense evening them out as best as i could. Because for ex Velmir's trait is pretty useless for dual wielding but daggers are the best weapon i could use, and Jorgrim's trait is most useful for dual wielding but maces do low dmg, still great utility from the random Daze and Stun, my Arna sped up kills with random bleeds, my Dirwin's axes did random bodypart dmg and thus targets received extra dmg next turns, etc. They felt different enough and i enjoyed playing them. If you are looking for the absolute best i think you figured out from what i said that daggers on Jorgrim would be top, Axes being second best, they work too damage wise they are just more NRG hungry.

And as a speculation on my part i think Jonna starts with dual wielding because of the future Wand tree, which could be used in the off hand and with main hand dmg from Dagger, in a possible Venomancer build. I imagine Wands being more a debuff applying weapon not a one handed staff used for casting, but who knows maybe my speculation is totally wrong.

Now getting back to dual wielding, besides getting Vitality to 20 (this is a personal preference, helps me to not get as many injuries and it's NRG regen without rest) i put all points in Agility for dodge and Crit Chance (all weapons have extra "ability" on Crit hit, which i exemplified above when talking about the "random" for each character). Then Enchanted my Armor pieces and Jewelry with Dodge Chance and weapons with Life Leech, not useful every time but when you do get hit you get hit hard and it's important. And as gear if you don't have the supporter pack with Hired Blade Cowl which is fine to use then get a Novice Mage Cowl and later replace it with Exquisite Cowl when your reputation increases. For body Elven Garment then Skaar Garment, which is key and the biggest boost. You can use Ruby Sash or Knightly Girdle both are fine, and from the start of the game get Leather Bracers and Town Shoes. And in the late game or whenever you go fight the Troll be sure to get a couple of Silver Ruby Rings, and i prefer the Hand Amulet from Abbey on all melee builds, but for Dual Wielders it's actually the best.

Stay longer in Osbrook and do more contracts to get to Respect and get the upgrade gear i said from the Tailor. Also it's not worth bringing back to sell stuff that is not valuable because you need little gold for gear, thou you still need some gold for Medicine, mostly Vivifying Essence and i'd recommend always to take the two Hornet Honeys from Trapper and a couple of Antitoxins from the Herbalist when you are going to the Brigand or Shadow Covenant dungeons, Crimson Covenant one is very easy for anyone imo. You don't need to but it's fun and you have to do something with gold anyway. I think that's all. Oh Stone Armor is excellent, but needs more turn investment with Runic Boulder creation. So just use Offensive Tactic and Seize Initiative from Combat Mastery and from Athletics tree the Dash and Elusiveness defensively and Mighty Kick (low NRG cost) to boost Seize Initiative and the occasional Stun if position allows it and occasional denial of stuff like Mighty Swing or other enemy abilities. Actually done now. Enjoy.

Wow, thanks a lot.

How do you deal with skeletons if you don't dual wield maces?

[DacianDraco]

Don't remember skeletons being a problem, i usually hug the wall near the door and wait for them to get in my immediate diagonal and take them one by one. Now since i have 2 square vision of the doorway and i see them 1 turn before i could hit them i either do nothing and wait if it's just one (even Monk/Priest/other casters) or if there are several heading for me i activate Offensive Tactic (i use this more often because it costs less NRG than a specific Stance) then the next turn when they move near me i Mighty Kick them and usually Stun, because it feels like none of the undead have Move Resistance, well i think the ghost type ones have because i never seen one stunned but anyway, skeletons usually go down in 3-4 hits.

Position:

XXC
DE
XXC

(X are walls, E is the hit enemy preferred position, D is door which i opened and up to where i have vision and buff if i must, C are Character positions if there is nothing there, sometimes there is in both spots so i run a room back where i can better setup)

If it's a shield guy and i happen to not Stun him on first try and he uses his filthy Raise Shield i just Dash away and position favorably to be able to stun again, like in the vicinity of a Pedestal type of object or a Sarcophagus and just let them walk towards me and spend their buff turns. Thou i admit sometimes i activate Elusiveness and try to hit while they have Raise Shield active, which is not optimal since my hits have a high chance to get blocked (also as a side note don't try Elusiveness vs casters cause they hit you anyway with spells or the curse/effect stuff).

And i think the Shadow Covenant dungeon near Osbrook has mostly zombie type of enemies which are easy and don't do too much dmg, so for now i think it's best to just run it more often cause you need the Reputation. That is instead of doing the Mannshire's Shadow Covenant dungeon which has more of the "heavy armored" skeletons that can drop useful (even thou damaged) weapons/helms, because these in reality are not as useful drops for a dual wielder as they are for other melee builds. I feel Mannshire's Shadow Covenant dungeon is more "challenge/reward" favored later on, like lvl 10+ and i personally run them in hopes of rare Jewelry and even gems which i collect, cause i have my own to do list, don't judge me.

[funkmonster7]

I'm pretty sure skeletons have 25% piercing resistance, so I was wondering if you switch to maces if you fight skeletons, or would you just use whatever weapon that character is specced to? For example, using dual swords on skeletons are kind of a waste since skeletons have 100% bleed resistance.

[DacianDraco]

No i didn't switch, i just used my chosen weapons, daggers, swords, axe, etc. They all worked fine as far as i remember.

[Bud Spencer]

I tried many dual wielding builds and know very well, that dual wielding sucks in this game. You will get way more out a 1h weapon and a shield as you do about the same damage but actually block way more attacks while often countering them.
When you counter while dual wielding it is 1 hit - just like you would use only 1 weapon.
The handeffeciency system turns dual wielding into a sad joke.
Ask yourself: If I use a sword and a shield, then put away the shield and take another weapon - how does it change the impact of the 1st weapon? It is a nerf system with the only purpose to stop dual wielding from being too good, but makes it actually weaker then any other style.
Ask yourself this: If a 2h weapon can hit 3 or even more enemies - why does dualwielding have to be nerfed at all?

[funkmonster7]

Originally posted by Dub Spencer and Trance Hill:

I tried many dual wielding builds and know very well, that dual wielding sucks in this game. You will get way more out a 1h weapon and a shield as you do about the same damage but actually block way more attacks while often countering them.
When you counter while dual wielding it is 1 hit - just like you would use only 1 weapon.
The handeffeciency system turns dual wielding into a sad joke.
Ask yourself: If I use a sword and a shield, then put away the shield and take another weapon - how does it change the impact of the 1st weapon? It is a nerf system with the only purpose to stop dual wielding from being too good, but makes it actually weaker then any other style.
Ask yourself this: If a 2h weapon can hit 3 or even more enemies - why does dualwielding have to be nerfed at all?

At the moment, game balancing is not going to be helpful as not all the skills and features are out yet. For example, stealth is not implemented yet. Wearing 0 prot clothing would mean that the DW character can sneak around like nobody's business. So there will be ways that a DW build can slaughter an enemy team that a fully armored build can't. Also, wearing full heavy armor at the moment makes you weak to lightning damage - except no lighting magic spells are in the game yet.

DW used to be even worse when the enemy could net you but you couldn't net them back. At least now you can (lol). Shields get hard countered by two-handed axes as well, each of their strikes lower block chance and block power. While dodge chance get hard countered by Feint Strike (two-handed sword skill). This is why for my DW build I like to take at least Taking Aim, so I can plink some arrows into two-handed sword enemies. Sadly, it also means I kill most things before they get in range...

I really wonder if level 30 will be enough for a level cap if this keeps going, as right now given all the skills and their prerequisites (and how ineffective they are if you only pick a selected few vs if you take the whole tree), there is little reason to make hybrid builds. But once the Medicine and other Utility skill trees come into play, it will be much more difficult to make a proper build including those skill trees as well. Although the devs have mentioned there are other ways to get skill points but probably only a handful more. I don't know if a handful more will really help this situation, but just my thoughts.

The reason I'm saying this is a DW character right now needs a lot of skill points investment. This build is going to need hybridization of some kind. Like right now, I can't get close to enemy archers, so my only ways are to either waste their arrows with high dodge chance, or shoot at them myself. I prefer shooting them since I use bows to pull enemies anyway. And there are some enemies too dangerous to fight up close. But anyway... just my musing.

[funkmonster7]

Originally posted by Dub Spencer and Trance Hill:

I tried many dual wielding builds and know very well, that dual wielding sucks in this game. You will get way more out a 1h weapon and a shield as you do about the same damage but actually block way more attacks while often countering them.
When you counter while dual wielding it is 1 hit - just like you would use only 1 weapon.
The handeffeciency system turns dual wielding into a sad joke.
Ask yourself: If I use a sword and a shield, then put away the shield and take another weapon - how does it change the impact of the 1st weapon? It is a nerf system with the only purpose to stop dual wielding from being too good, but makes it actually weaker then any other style.
Ask yourself this: If a 2h weapon can hit 3 or even more enemies - why does dualwielding have to be nerfed at all?

By the way, I tried quoting this a while ago and all that I wrote got included in the quote, plus everything was in bold...

@Dub Spencer and Trance Hill, next time if you do the bold formatting, make sure you put a "/" at the end. For example: {b} anything you want {/b} (change out the {} for []). Otherwise, everything from the first {b} will be in bold. Somehow it screwed up the {/quote} as well, I don't know why.

Edit: I realized the 'fix'. Basically you used four {b}'s. So, to "close" that format off, I put four {/b}'s at the end, since you opened it four times, kind of like quoting a quote out of a quote out of a quote out of a quote. (If you don't understand, quote this post and look at the string of {/b}'s at the end of your post.) I had to experiment though, but it was fun troubleshooting. :)

[funkmonster7]

Back to Dual Wielding business; has anyone tried dual wielding different weapons? In this case, I'm wondering mace and dagger. Because one of the dagger passive skills is when the dagger is in the off-hand, it gets +15% off-hand proficiency. If dual wielding a mace with a dagger, with Dual Wielding Training passive skill learned, the mace gets standard 75% main-hand proficiency while the dagger will get a total of 90% off-hand proficiency (50% + 25% + 15%).

Would mace/dagger work better than mace/mace or dagger/dagger? The real change here is whether lacking an additional dagger attack will change how the skills are used over time i.e. dual daggers mean more dagger-specific buffs e.g. dodge chance, and also refreshes dagger skills quicker. But the issue with the dodge chance increase is Feint Swing from two-handed swords hard-counter dodge chance (as well as block chance etc). Also, the Throwing Net item hard-counters it as well. And Immobilization. Therefore, I'm thinking that using a mace will alleviate a bit more of this problem. However, I don't know if there will be enough skill points to make it all worth it.

[Drokmon]

Originally posted by funkmonster7:

Back to Dual Wielding business; has anyone tried dual wielding different weapons? In this case, I'm wondering mace and dagger. Because one of the dagger passive skills is when the dagger is in the off-hand, it gets +15% off-hand proficiency. If dual wielding a mace with a dagger, with Dual Wielding Training passive skill learned, the mace gets standard 75% main-hand proficiency while the dagger will get a total of 90% off-hand proficiency (50% + 25% + 15%).

Would mace/dagger work better than mace/mace or dagger/dagger? The real change here is whether lacking an additional dagger attack will change how the skills are used over time i.e. dual daggers mean more dagger-specific buffs e.g. dodge chance, and also refreshes dagger skills quicker. But the issue with the dodge chance increase is Feint Swing from two-handed swords hard-counter dodge chance (as well as block chance etc). Also, the Throwing Net item hard-counters it as well. And Immobilization. Therefore, I'm thinking that using a mace will alleviate a bit more of this problem. However, I don't know if there will be enough skill points to make it all worth it.

I feel like sword/dagger would have more synergy between skills and passives:
- more skills and passive with bleed, crit and counter
- Blade Maintenance increases weapon damage, which boosts both weapons
- Fencer's Stance buffs dodge, making it a decent defensive move
- sword tree offers movement skills, which the dagger tree lacks

[funkmonster7]

Originally posted by Drokmon:

Originally posted by funkmonster7:

Back to Dual Wielding business; has anyone tried dual wielding different weapons? In this case, I'm wondering mace and dagger. Because one of the dagger passive skills is when the dagger is in the off-hand, it gets +15% off-hand proficiency. If dual wielding a mace with a dagger, with Dual Wielding Training passive skill learned, the mace gets standard 75% main-hand proficiency while the dagger will get a total of 90% off-hand proficiency (50% + 25% + 15%).

Would mace/dagger work better than mace/mace or dagger/dagger? The real change here is whether lacking an additional dagger attack will change how the skills are used over time i.e. dual daggers mean more dagger-specific buffs e.g. dodge chance, and also refreshes dagger skills quicker. But the issue with the dodge chance increase is Feint Swing from two-handed swords hard-counter dodge chance (as well as block chance etc). Also, the Throwing Net item hard-counters it as well. And Immobilization. Therefore, I'm thinking that using a mace will alleviate a bit more of this problem. However, I don't know if there will be enough skill points to make it all worth it.

I feel like sword/dagger would have more synergy between skills and passives:
- more skills and passive with bleed, crit and counter
- Blade Maintenance increases weapon damage, which boosts both weapons
- Fencer's Stance buffs dodge, making it a decent defensive move
- sword tree offers movement skills, which the dagger tree lacks

I feel the same way. But the hard counters to dodge are too strong right now. Immobilization is an instant -100% dodge, and even stagger is an instant -50% dodge. For a squishy DW build, it spells instant GG. Also I was thinking that sword/dagger would boost the offense of daggers, but mace slightly negates the weaknesses. I dunno, just thinking out loud here.

[Drokmon]

Originally posted by funkmonster7:

I feel the same way. But the hard counters to dodge are too strong right now. Immobilization is an instant -100% dodge, and even stagger is an instant -50% dodge. For a squishy DW build, it spells instant GG. Also I was thinking that sword/dagger would boost the offense of daggers, but mace slightly negates the weaknesses. I dunno, just thinking out loud here.

Part of those hard counters might be mitigated by how you approach combat.

In dungeons, always fight in doorways per DacianDraco's suggestion above. Limits the enemy's ability to swarm and kill you whilst you're unable to dodge. If you get immobilized, you'll take a poke from a spear but it shouldn't be an instant kill.

Sword's Keeping Distance is a decent counter to Greatsword's Feign Swing. Use KD if you get hit with FS and force them to waste your one-turn-of-zero-dodge chasing you. If you're in the doorway setup, move away so that they don't have a straight line to you; they won't use Heroic Charge (if they have it) without a direct line of approach.

In general, I always take Elusiveness with a DW build. Once you figure out the order in which enemies use their skills (ie. shield users use Raise Shield once they're in melee range), you can time Elusiveness to get a few turns of boosted dodge, which should hopefully be enough time for you to stun or kill your target.

[funkmonster7]

Originally posted by Drokmon:

Originally posted by funkmonster7:

I feel the same way. But the hard counters to dodge are too strong right now. Immobilization is an instant -100% dodge, and even stagger is an instant -50% dodge. For a squishy DW build, it spells instant GG. Also I was thinking that sword/dagger would boost the offense of daggers, but mace slightly negates the weaknesses. I dunno, just thinking out loud here.

Part of those hard counters might be mitigated by how you approach combat.

In dungeons, always fight in doorways per DacianDraco's suggestion above. Limits the enemy's ability to swarm and kill you whilst you're unable to dodge. If you get immobilized, you'll take a poke from a spear but it shouldn't be an instant kill.

Sword's Keeping Distance is a decent counter to Greatsword's Feign Swing. Use KD if you get hit with FS and force them to waste your one-turn-of-zero-dodge chasing you. If you're in the doorway setup, move away so that they don't have a straight line to you; they won't use Heroic Charge (if they have it) without a direct line of approach.

In general, I always take Elusiveness with a DW build. Once you figure out the order in which enemies use their skills (ie. shield users use Raise Shield once they're in melee range), you can time Elusiveness to get a few turns of boosted dodge, which should hopefully be enough time for you to stun or kill your target.

I see. Thanks for the useful advice. :)