Perma Death Mode

[Dixon Sider]

Hey, I just wanted to ask if anyone knows whats planned with perma death mode? I was just playing it and died. I sat there on my last turn thinking "There is no way I am surviving another turn". Sure enough I died. But there was a thought in the back of my head saying "Alt-F4 to save your cahracter". Now I did not do it, but I feel like the thought is going to come up every time I am about to die in perma death. Anyone else feel this might be an issue? I feel like the first time I alt-F4 there will be no turning back and I will no longer be playing perma death while I have the option checked.

I get that there are people who can play video games while pretending functionality is or is not there, but I am not one of those people. I would also counter the argument of "just pretend you cant alt-f4" with "why not just tell us to pretend its perma death enabled then?". Clearly the developers want a perma death mode, and the game itself fits the idea quite perfectly. Just that one issue of Alt-F4.

I think that the game should delete your save every time you load it, and quit your save every time you save it. Anyone else agree/disagree? Any other ideas to make the mechanic more robust than using the honor system?

[laveley]

Well there's save-on exit. Although, if you really want to, you can even by-pass that by backing-up your file....

So in the end of the day its just you vs your psyche.

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by laveley:

Well there's save-on exit. Although, if you really want to, you can even by-pass that by backing-up your file....

So in the end of the day its just you vs your psyche.

Backing up your file requires you to go in your file directory and that makes it the same thing as modding. What I am talking about is an in game mechanic that can be used as an exploit. I believe there are also technical limitations that don't allow the devs to have save on exit.

I like the thought of perma death, but having easy exploits to maneuver around death make it feel less perma-death. I think deleting your save every time you load it, and exiting every time you decide to save would fit quite well. I guess that would require an option of "do you want to save" whenever you rest.

[laveley]

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

Originally posted by laveley:

Well there's save-on exit. Although, if you really want to, you can even by-pass that by backing-up your file....

So in the end of the day its just you vs your psyche.

Backing up your file requires you to go in your file directory and that makes it the same thing as modding. What I am talking about is an in game mechanic that can be used as an exploit. I believe there are also technical limitations that don't allow the devs to have save on exit.

I like the thought of perma death, but having easy exploits to maneuver around death make it feel less perma-death. I think deleting your save every time you load it, and exiting every time you decide to save would fit quite well. I guess that would require an option of "do you want to save" whenever you rest.

I woundt call ALT+F4 and "ingame mechanic". I know its not as "easy" to back up your file instead of ALT+f4 (although you could create a script to automatically do it everytime you save), but again in the end of the day you can still do it if you whish.

The problem of auto-deleting the file if you alt-f4 is that it can delete the file if occurs a crash.

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by laveley:

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

Backing up your file requires you to go in your file directory and that makes it the same thing as modding. What I am talking about is an in game mechanic that can be used as an exploit. I believe there are also technical limitations that don't allow the devs to have save on exit.

I like the thought of perma death, but having easy exploits to maneuver around death make it feel less perma-death. I think deleting your save every time you load it, and exiting every time you decide to save would fit quite well. I guess that would require an option of "do you want to save" whenever you rest.

I woundt call ALT+F4 and "ingame mechanic". I know its not as "easy" to back up your file instead of ALT+f4 (although you could create a script to automatically do it everytime you save), but again in the end of the day you can still do it if you whish.

The problem of auto-deleting the file if you alt-f4 is that it can delete the file if occurs a crash.

Is it better to sacrifice a small few, or not let anyone play true perma death?

[Enfild]

Well, then it will be normal mode with extra steps. Permadeath are for those with strong will, ang good knowledge of the game, so if you cant bear loss, just dont play it. Its like difficulty in older games, you dont have to play on max skill level.
I personaly dont like permadeth that much, and usually dont play it, so i am really glad that it is just an option here.

[Atma]

Eh, if you want to cheat yourself by hitting alt+F4 in your permadeath game, who cares?

It's a single player game, do whatever you want in your own game.

Although, if you're going to be tempted to do this, you should probably just not play in permadeath.

Personally, I kinda feel like it's a waste of time and resources to devote to something like this.

Maybe if permadeath was the only mode, it'd make more sense.

But hey, maybe the devs might feel differently.

[laveley]

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

Originally posted by laveley:

I woundt call ALT+F4 and "ingame mechanic". I know its not as "easy" to back up your file instead of ALT+f4 (although you could create a script to automatically do it everytime you save), but again in the end of the day you can still do it if you whish.

The problem of auto-deleting the file if you alt-f4 is that it can delete the file if occurs a crash.

Is it better to sacrifice a small few, or not let anyone play true perma death?

You can play "true permadeath" even without a native permadeath if you want. Why add a problematic feature just so a small few can be ok with their conscience?

Your solution would actually just force people like me that plays "true permadeath" without conscience issues to backup my file in fear i loose the char for a ctd. Or i would just have to play normal mode and abandon the char if i die.

[mar3usmc]

A better solution for ironman mode, using achievements. If you die, you don't get the ironman achievement. THERE IS NO NEED FOR THIS MODE!

Games crash, people lose power, and if it was to go the cloud save route, and you lost connection, you wouldn't be able to continue your game until the connection returned.

Steam has achievements for a reason, bragging rights. If you want to secure ironman mode, the only way is to force players to use a cloud save system that saves on exit, or lost connection. Players have no access to the save. T.O.M.E. has this feature, and distinguishes between those that use the cloud save or not for rogue mode, one life. As a matter of fact, TOME, imo, is the best save system out there. You can save scum if you want by going native saves, or use them for multiple skill routes for experimentation, I have done this plenty to see what was best. However, if you want that achievement for bragging rights you have to maintain an internet connection and use cloud saving. No way to cheat it.

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by mar3usmc:

A better solution for ironman mode, using achievements. If you die, you don't get the ironman achievement. THERE IS NO NEED FOR THIS MODE!

I agree. The mode doesn't really add anything because of the extremely easy ways you can circumvent the additional mechanics using in game features. Even alt-f4 aside, anyone can just load their last save when they think they are about to die. The way the mechanics work does not facilitate perma death the way it is described in the setting description. I was looking forward to a real perma death. I like the way the base game works, but I think perma death would fit really well in this game if done right.

Originally posted by mar3usmc:

the only way is to force players to use a cloud save system that saves on exit, or lost connection.

There are ways it has been done in the past, but I think the way the foundation of this game is set up it eliminates a lot of the possible solutions to this issue. I know pillars of eternity has a save feature for when you atl-F4, but that is save on exit. The devs for stone shard have mentioned this is off the table. Darkest Dungeon saves the game every time you do any action. Again, off the table according to the devs. I think the solution I mentioned would be the best solution for the issue. Loading at all while playing perma death defeats the purpose of the mode.

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by laveley:

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

Is it better to sacrifice a small few, or not let anyone play true perma death?

You can play "true permadeath" even without a native permadeath if you want. Why add a problematic feature just so a small few can be ok with their conscience?

I mentioned this in the OP. There was an attempt to create a perma death mode by the developers. They probably want there to be one included. I am just shining light on an in game method for exploiting the perma death mode setting that trivializes it. Playing the game to "pretend X or Y" should always be off the table.

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by Atma:

Although, if you're going to be tempted to do this, you should probably just not play in permadeath.

I prefer perma death, but the ability to cheat the mechanic so easily makes me feel patronized even if I don't cheat it. Alt-F4 and modding aside, its very simple to do.

[Atma]

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

Originally posted by Atma:

Although, if you're going to be tempted to do this, you should probably just not play in permadeath.

I prefer perma death, but the ability to cheat the mechanic so easily makes me feel patronized even if I don't cheat it. Alt-F4 and modding aside, its very simple to do.

How are you patronized? Either you play it on permadeath and don't cheat or you do.

The only point of playing on permadeath is the sense of accomplishment. You know if you cheated or not.

Nobody else cares what mode you play on, this is purely for your own enjoyment.

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by Atma:

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

I prefer perma death, but the ability to cheat the mechanic so easily makes me feel patronized even if I don't cheat it. Alt-F4 and modding aside, its very simple to do.

How are you patronized? Either you play it on permadeath and don't cheat or you do.

The only point of playing on permadeath is the sense of accomplishment. You know if you cheated or not.

Nobody else cares what mode you play on, this is purely for your own enjoyment.

But the feeling of being patronized makes it less enjoyable. When the game mode is added but not facilitated that makes me feel patronized. It is just my opinion on the game. I like the game pretty much all around, but the perma death mode needs some TLC.

[Atma]

I guess I'm just not understanding what you mean by being feeling patronized.

You either play permadeath the way it's intended and feel good about yourself or you don't and.. don't. If you didn't use alt+f4, how is it any less enjoyable?

A workaround will always exist, because you can just backup your saves anyway. There is no way for the devs to make permadeath airtight, and it really just sounds like a complete waste of time doing so.

Again, nobody cares what mode you play on. It's purely for your own enjoyment. If you want to play on permadeath, then go ahead. If you don't want to lose your save, then just play normal.

It sounds like what you're really saying here is that you want the devs to devote time and resources to something so that OTHER people can't use alt+f4, because if you know you aren't using it, what does it even matter in the end?

[laveley]

Originally posted by mar3usmc:

A better solution for ironman mode, using achievements. If you die, you don't get the ironman achievement. THERE IS NO NEED FOR THIS MODE!

Games crash, people lose power, and if it was to go the cloud save route, and you lost connection, you wouldn't be able to continue your game until the connection returned.

Steam has achievements for a reason, bragging rights. If you want to secure ironman mode, the only way is to force players to use a cloud save system that saves on exit, or lost connection. Players have no access to the save. T.O.M.E. has this feature, and distinguishes between those that use the cloud save or not for rogue mode, one life. As a matter of fact, TOME, imo, is the best save system out there. You can save scum if you want by going native saves, or use them for multiple skill routes for experimentation, I have done this plenty to see what was best. However, if you want that achievement for bragging rights you have to maintain an internet connection and use cloud saving. No way to cheat it.

T.O.M.E. system is the best indeed, although even i already had problems with corrupted saves there, and theres is nothing you can do about it when it happens.

No fun loosing a strong character when its not your fault. Specially when you are playing against the odds with a "bad" race like a ghoul when it did. This is the reason that let me drop that game a long time ago.