Hovering in Battlezone II Combat Commander Remastered ???

[Acolyte]

Well I hope we can fly just like how it was in 1.2

[Ded10c]

I don't know if I'll ever understand why this became so popular. It was a bug that allowed players to completely bypass the intended playstyle such that the AI were rendered massively less effective. It wasn't the sort of minor bug that adds a new gameplay dynamic, like skiing or rocket jumping... it was a destructive exploit that raised a huge skill barrier against those who couldn't do it.

[Acolyte]

In that case that hovering skill still allowed, i suggest the AI level should be increasing without installing vsr.

[23-Down]

Ya it was an unfair exploit in mp and killed the mp community. Put old ghosts to rest at least in this case I'm glad that this was fixed in 1.3.

Obviously exploits get popular among those using and depending on it. So it was a big deal to these individuals.

As for an enhanced AI both friendly and enemy I totally agree. Lets hope the AI will get better path finding and maneuvers smarter to avoid the constant friendly fire on each other etc.

[sp/\ce]

In 1.0-1.2 hovering capabilities were a little bit too extreme. It was possible to climb upwards in air even with an ISDF tank. In 1.3 the hovering (air control) is reduced by sucha an extreme factor that the game simply isn't fun anymore. 1.3 feels like the game itself is fighting against you as ships fall down on terrain like uncontrollable anvils, then as the bouncing continues and continues it takes forever to regain control of the ship - mindless - whole gameplay is primitive. Because the whole hovering elimination went so badly overboard it raises a question that did Ken M. and Nathan M. play the game at all by themselfs ? In fist 1.3 version colliding with terrain and then bouncing afterwards even caused significant damage (players died often) which clearly was an indication that not a lot of effort/thought was put into it all.

The best thing to do is to go for slightly reduced hovering capabilites. Like once a player takes his/her ship and takes big air, he/she should be able to keep the ship falling down slowly not falling down without control in accelerated fashion.

Note that 1.3 also improved AI generally so human players became obsolete/useless in strats. ZST only improved defenses to cope with versatile hovering players.

In 1.2 it was possible to reduce hovering by modding to find a golden balance. But then in 1.3 the whole air control was ruled out by brute forced, black and white attitude. Defenders of 1.3 physics (MPI modders) were people who had no experience in fighting against humans - people who never tried playing the game with automatic leveling turned off - people who never had a climpse of all the potentials.

[Rocket3497]

Originally posted by RamMan:

In 1.2 it was possible to reduce hovering by modding to find a golden balance. But then in 1.3 the whole air control was ruled out by brute forced, black and white attitude. Defenders of 1.3 physics (MPI modders) were people who had no experience in fighting against humans - people who never tried playing the game with automatic leveling turned off - people who never had a climpse of all the potentials.

before you start making too many generalizations, i've played the game since before it had any patches or updates and the physics aren't that bad, I understand what you are saying with the falling, the only thing that could be done with it would be to create additional downward velocity reduction when near the ground to prevent slamming into the ground, it's not bad the way it is right now, in fact i hardly ever cause damage to my ship by slamming into the ground and i do plenty of air during combat.

[Grapekun.Odf]

I knew how to fly and I hated what it did to the game. Hovercrafts are not airplanes.

As for why Mr Nates forced players to use 1.3 physics without the ability to turn them off I hear it was because a certain group of players kept trolling and harassing him. Which if that was the case then I certainly don't blame him.

[sp/\ce]

Originally posted by Rocket3497:

Originally posted by RamMan:

In 1.2 it was possible to reduce hovering by modding to find a golden balance. But then in 1.3 the whole air control was ruled out by brute forced, black and white attitude. Defenders of 1.3 physics (MPI modders) were people who had no experience in fighting against humans - people who never tried playing the game with automatic leveling turned off - people who never had a climpse of all the potentials.

before you start making too many generalizations, i've played the game since before it had any patches or updates and the physics aren't that bad, I understand what you are saying with the falling, the only thing that could be done with it would be to create additional downward velocity reduction when near the ground to prevent slamming into the ground, it's not bad the way it is right now, in fact i hardly ever cause damage to my ship by slamming into the ground and i do plenty of air during combat.

Note that if there's no air control (strafing while in air, slowing down falling etc.), there's no reason for players to take air. Players just become easy to hit targets as the path is easily predictable. Can you see how it chops off a significant amount of depth from the game. It's supposed to be a game where players take air right ?

Your idea of reducing velocity based on terrain proximity is not enough. :) It would handle the rubber ball bouncing dilemma nicely though.

[sp/\ce]

Originally posted by Grapekun.Odf:

As for why Mr Nates forced players to use 1.3 physics without the ability to turn them off I hear it was because a certain group of players kept trolling and harassing him. Which if that was the case then I certainly don't blame him.

Problem probably was that Nathan was only a middleman for physics but he was also the only guy that the beta team could talk to. Ken stayed behind the scenes and took years to accomplish miniscule tasks. I can see how all the hate piled up on Nathan.

[sp/\ce]

Zemod (before 1.3 times) solved hovering exploit issues in sucha way that experienced players (vets) accepted all the reductions in capabilities.Rather sad that it had some connection packet loss bug that made all players simultaneously fall out before games ended.
http://ze.bz2maps.us/

It had physics more like in Battlezone 1 (1997). If a player desired to stay in air for as long as possible, a ship kept on falling down but very slowly. It was impossible to climb up in air - it was impossible to escape battles by ghost hovering out. What it offered was robust air control (strafing, spinning, etc.) that didn't break the game. You could take a jump over defenses, point your nose down, move and shoot but you couldn't avoid slowly falling down. And then when your ship eventually touched ground it didn't bounce even once like a superball - you could just smoothly continue 'gameplay'. The whole experience was 'three dimensional' like someone called it some days ago.

[Ded10c]

Originally posted by RamMan:

It's supposed to be a game where players take air right ?

Aside from jumping over low obstacles like you describe in your most recent post... no, it's not. Most gameplay in the original is significantly more grounded than BZ2 was in the pre-1.3 days.

Originally posted by RamMan:

Ken stayed behind the scenes and took years to accomplish miniscule tasks. I can see how all the hate piled up on Nathan.

Both men were working on 1.3 strictly voluntarily as a hobby project, while also maintaining full time programming jobs in the games industry (which are very demanding) and, in Nathan's case, a family. Slow progress is to be expected.

Originally posted by RamMan:

Defenders of 1.3 physics (MPI modders) were people who had no experience in fighting against humans - people who never tried playing the game with automatic leveling turned off - people who never had a climpse of all the potentials.

This entire statement is categorically incorrect. Please, please, please try to avoid conflating these three groups of people. 1.3's defenders, MPI players and modders experience about as much crossover with each other as they do with every other group of players - and most members of all three groups keep automatic levelling off and have experience playing against humans.

Whether you are doing so or not, it is worth noting that calling people MPI players or modders as a slur, and implying that they are somehow inferior, is inaccurate and outright rude.

[sp/\ce]

Originally posted by RamMan:

Defenders of 1.3 physics (MPI modders) were people who had no experience in fighting against humans - people who never tried playing the game with automatic leveling turned off - people who never had a climpse of all the potentials.

Originally posted by Ded10C:

This entire statement is categorically incorrect. Please, please, please try to avoid conflating these three groups of people. 1.3's defenders, MPI players and modders experience about as much crossover with each other as they do with every other group of players - and most members of all three groups keep automatic levelling off and have experience playing against humans.

Whether you are doing so or not, it is worth noting that calling people MPI players or modders as a slur, and implying that they are somehow inferior, is inaccurate and outright rude.

I was there in the team and still rouhgly remember who was onboard. The initial public version was so dissapointing for vets that many refused to touch the 1.3 again. Many installed the patch straight on top of 1.2 (couldnt revert back and keep all maps, settings, mods) and then dissapeared for a long time or permanently due to all the effort required to start building 1.2 installation from scratch. There were only a couple vets (human vs human players) left in the beta team after initial public release - and after the event climax they didn't talk much.

[Ded10c]

It's always been possible to transfer maps and settings from 1.3 to 1.2, just not perhaps easy. Then again, it was never something Ken or GSH had any reason to consider supporting.

I'm aware that the flying "debate" caused a rift in the community, but it was a completely unnecessary one that stemmed from an overreaction of absurd proportions.

I have never - and I've been in the community for well over fifteen years now - heard the word "vet" used to describe specifically human-vs-human players. In all the contexts I've heard it it has been used strictly to describe those respected as skilled and capable in competitive play in the community at large. Several of the vets I know enjoy ST and MPI in almost equal measure, and make mods that support and ehnance the experience of both.

Typically, competitive players aren't the kind of people you want involved in a test team. If someone approaches testing the same way one approaches typical gameplay, expecting to have fun or compete or win, then they're liable to cause more harm than good. As someone who was also a member of the 1.3 team for several years, that's a more likely reason for there being more modders than vets; modders are used to development, typically understand the mechanical ins and outs of the game from an internal perspective (meaning they can track down bugs and build repro cases faster) and are able to submit and vet asset fixes to take the load off the patch's developers.

That said I'm not going to pretend 1.3 was optimal - far from it. It was simply the best that could be done with the situation at hand and the resources available.

[Acolyte]

I have to admit 1.3 and VRS are stable version. I knew there was a hovering debate. There is advantage on both side.I undurstand flying in air while 1 hours is too exagered. However, I think hovering in air at least 10 mins could be enough to keep our sill maneuver that we had since 1998 . For the moment, the new version we cant really fly like before.


Then most of people became easy target and limited move. Some of our vets skills still require air control . Example, im long range figther player, most of time I use air in my game play. The vrs 1.3 we fall down too quick. The other side, reducing hovering time help to avoid air camper /bug later in game. In that case, I would suggest the new developpers of the game adding new flying ships like Gnat / or Walkerie from starfleet mod and Evil Empire mod.


I wonder if the warp bug would be fixed on the new BZII remastered ? Because it was complicated to get players correctly.

[Ded10c]

I have seen flying performed in 1.3 - proper nowhere-near-the-ground, infinite upward trust flying. It's actually not impossible... It's just really, really difficult, which I guess is ye next best thing.

I suspect fixing network issues will be one of BZCC's top priorities.

And yes... Any advocate of flying should give aircraftclass a try.

[sp/\ce]

Originally posted by Ded10c:

I have seen flying performed in 1.3 - proper nowhere-near-the-ground, infinite upward trust flying. It's actually not impossible... It's just really, really difficult, which I guess is ye next best thing.

I have never seen that done running 1.3. Is there proof - like a video clip or something ? Can you do it ? Is there someone here who can do it and show it ?