new game plus feels totally overtuned somehow

[Physical Disconnect]

i just played through the first few stages of ng+1 and have to say its pretty interresting.

1. you get -199 armor as penalty allres gets -124 which is very hard to overcome if you dont get the right trinkets in the first few stages already forcing you to play extra careful in a game where you should literally rush through the enemies at this point.
2. enemies and bosses become HP sponges. especially noticeable against the mages and assasins(who even have evade) in crypt if you get unlucky with trinkets with elite damage(imagine you play a mage class and dont have enough mana regen yet because all of that comes from trinkets that you did not have yet. and then you autoattack with LMB which does no damage as all you dished out with your spells was too less dmg even with 300 spellpower to deal half HP damage of the elite let alone boss)
3. mage type enemies give shadow curse when you get hit by certain attacks (really now?)
4. traps seem to scale with area level making it literally impossible to take a few hits in order to solve the trap and getting the chest. (who thought this is a good idea?)
5. bosses get new mechanics in terms of mechanic upgrade (for example the totem boss got 6 fire rays instead of 4. more tornadoes and projectiles.)

these are just a few things that came out to me as it jumped right into my face when i died from it especially im sure theres much more even and only becoming worse.

so my question now is: what exactly does ng+ give the player to overcome all these obstacles? outside of "better ilvl gear" which literally provides like 10-15% to the overall char performance only what more is there? most of the char power comes from trinkets and trinkets seem to all stay the same nothing special seems to be unlocked behind ng+ at least i havent noticed anything special that i havent seen before already over 12 tries with my lv20 sorc. where is the char power and the progression to tackle ng+? taking 10s for a single elite enemy? when theres 2-3 of them in every single monster stack? and what about the later stages? did some of you devs even test the ng+ mechanic before putting all the draconic penaltys into the mode without an actual way for the player to overcome these? especially the shadow curse mechanic and the traps are a joke for that reason.

[[HAT KID]]

yeah, for now ng+ isn't "funny hard", it's just boring. Many builds become unplayable, many new mechanincs are just punishing player for nothing, and 0 new really interesting mechanics/trinkets/equipment at all.

[ChiefBeef]

melee becomes outright unfun in ng2/3 with shadow curse since you'll be getting hit pretty much all the time...

[Mighty Joe Young]

Originally posted by ChiefBeef:

melee becomes outright unfun in ng2/3 with shadow curse since you'll be getting hit pretty much all the time...

100% warlock beat ng+2 easy due to minions. but paladin gets 90+ curse lol and no dmg output so you cant even solo paladin ng+2 imo

[Ramsey Rinehaus]

so for at least NG+1, you can heavily mitigate the armor and resistance penalties via having a leveled up paladin and warlock. Additionally, with your base maxed out, you can max out all resist at the magic lady and armor at the blacksmith and shut off the -armor/all res banes.

As for the shadow from enemies, its a limited set of enemies that can curse you, that you should be looking for in packs to delete in the opener and they provide small braziers that give -5 to shadow curse to mitigate it. Unless you are full mongo, its not really a problem.

As for damage and HP sponge enemies, the game is just gear-checking your build. You have to be heavily invested in spell or weapon crit for NG+ and if you have rainbow stats or a diverse stat build from the base game, you'll need to respec. Just enough STR to equip armor, some vitality and everything else into dex/int. Other than maybe paladin, you have to ignore the wisdom/mana regen stat otherwise your dmg is too low and you'll suffer working your way up the tower.

I think the real criticism of NG+ modes is that it feels pretty pigeon-holed for specs because of the crit requirement, and you're looking for basically the exact same trinkets every run to advance the base dmg and/or crit of your weapon/spell build.

[💀]

From the start i wanna say that i do agree that game past starting any ng+ run becomes very "grindy". I say that because i do not dislike that it is how it is but because some stuff just doesnt work. The game REALLY pushes you to making builds that are actually playable and takes away some that SHOULD be playable as well. For example there is no direct way to scale minions or followers. Yes there is one instance of specific minion modifier on trinket set called "Crawling critters" and it gives +25% follower damage which is really unreliable. You cant really heal your followers reliably (outside of having other player as paldin or playing as warlock with skill orb for life steal). You cant really give them weapon speed (attack speed). You cant really give them more health outside of spell levels. You cant really give them more resistances. It would be interesting if i could make them smaller and faster, bigger and slower, stronger or tankier. See what i mean?

Another example is that weapons also lack build variety. Main examples is that Tremor Strikes from Primalist ("Melee Weapon attacks causes tremors around you") doesnt work with Greataxe's Whirlwind. My idea was that i would get a lot of weapon speed and just get both skill orbs (one for ice explodes and one for lightning shocks form tremors) and just spin to win. Unfortunetly is does NOT work. I got that idea after playing a lot of pretty much the same concept. Ranger's subclass Warden has similar archetype. "Weapon hits unleash a gust of wind" does work with weapon skills (mainly Whirlwind and Arrow Volley). And to worst of all to this is that i am pretty sure this is not a bug. There are many instances in the game that refer to as "weapon attacks" and other that refer as "weapon hits" (examples above and some trinkets as "ectoplasm", "coiled serpent", "fire salts" or "closed circuit"). This is VERY misleading and makes making builds for ng+ really frustrating because you will spent some time thinking of a build and then suddenly it doesnt work. Another missed opportunity is that the trinket "Throwing Stars" also states "weapon attacks" and not "weapon hits" (this actualy makes sense because you dont need to HIT the enemy to throw the star, its just that u need to shot regardless of hitting, nonetheless this is really sad that is doesnt work with weapon skills like arrow volley).

Taking that all to acount i would like that there would be more modifiers or trinkets that make attacks more interesting and not just weapon speed, weapon damage and i guess on-hit trinkets. For example there could be a trinket that actualy decreases weapon speed and cast speed but increases Area of effect (this would be great for stuff like Fire Ball, Blessed Strike, Ground Slam or simply stupid Whirlwind. Imagine just exploding the whole room with just one Fire Ball).

And dont get me started on Assasins Mask, that thing is just abysmal. In a game like this trinket that is blue rarity and it requires you to play safe and slow? Please, i beg for them to rework it in some way. Either buffing it (still wouldnt pick it) or changing it completely.

I realise, it may seam that i require a lot but its not about that. I really like to play this game and will continue to try getting every character to level 100 (you can get around 1100 spell power with 100 level transmutation wizard, you can make insane tanky and high damage mana stacker paladin, you could probably get around 100% movement speed and 200% weapon speed with either ranger or rogue so it would be very interesting to see that for me) so i would like this game change in ways it lacks quality.

Last thing i want to say is that because of the problems above and the fact that you cant trade gear with other players (i would really like if they added this) its really hard to play this game with friends past ng+ because it takes a lot of time for any gear to drop (like two-handed weapons, especially bows, are really hard to get because there is only 20% chance to drop a two-handed weapon and then there is even smaller chance to get a bow and much smaller chance to get a better base bow) so in order for both (or more players) of you to stay in the same gear level is to always play together. For some people (my friend) that is not possible so it sucks. For that to work i would need to make another save just for me and yes that is a solution but please dude i aint doin that.

Everything here is because ng+ is inconsistent, not because the game sucks. The game is amazing before ng+ and i wish it were after too.

Thanks for reading and i hope someone would respond talking about their thoughts about my takes.

Much love !

[Why can't Light win ASL]

Originally posted by 💀:

From the start i wanna say that i do agree that game past starting any ng+ run becomes very "grindy". I say that because i do not dislike that it is how it is but because some stuff just doesnt work. The game REALLY pushes you to making builds that are actually playable and takes away some that SHOULD be playable as well. For example there is no direct way to scale minions or followers. Yes there is one instance of specific minion modifier on trinket set called "Crawling critters" and it gives +25% follower damage which is really unreliable. You cant really heal your followers reliably (outside of having other player as paldin or playing as warlock with skill orb for life steal). You cant really give them weapon speed (attack speed). You cant really give them more health outside of spell levels. You cant really give them more resistances. It would be interesting if i could make them smaller and faster, bigger and slower, stronger or tankier. See what i mean?

I think in a recent patch they did add spell scaling to minions, I dont really play minions but there are a few ways of scaling them I am just not super informed on the best ways.

Originally posted by 💀:

Another example is that weapons also lack build variety. Main examples is that Tremor Strikes from Primalist ("Melee Weapon attacks causes tremors around you") doesnt work with Greataxe's Whirlwind. My idea was that i would get a lot of weapon speed and just get both skill orbs (one for ice explodes and one for lightning shocks form tremors) and just spin to win. Unfortunetly is does NOT work. I got that idea after playing a lot of pretty much the same concept. Ranger's subclass Warden has similar archetype. "Weapon hits unleash a gust of wind" does work with weapon skills (mainly Whirlwind and Arrow Volley). And to worst of all to this is that i am pretty sure this is not a bug. There are many instances in the game that refer to as "weapon attacks" and other that refer as "weapon hits" (examples above and some trinkets as "ectoplasm", "coiled serpent", "fire salts" or "closed circuit"). This is VERY misleading and makes making builds for ng+ really frustrating because you will spent some time thinking of a build and then suddenly it doesnt work. Another missed opportunity is that the trinket "Throwing Stars" also states "weapon attacks" and not "weapon hits" (this actualy makes sense because you dont need to HIT the enemy to throw the star, its just that u need to shot regardless of hitting, nonetheless this is really sad that is doesnt work with weapon skills like arrow volley).

This doesnt really have anything to do with build variety, this might sound rude but this is just a lack of game knowledge, there are good reason that there are certain things that work on hit and other on attack, like rhythm should probably not work on attack instead of hit and shuriken should probably not work on hit instead of attack.

Originally posted by 💀:

And dont get me started on Assasins Mask, that thing is just abysmal. In a game like this trinket that is blue rarity and it requires you to play safe and slow? Please, i beg for them to rework it in some way. Either buffing it (still wouldnt pick it) or changing it completely.

It doesnt make you play safe and slow, it gives you more control in what you pull and gives a big damage boost which certain skills can utilize pretty well, there is no reason to play slow or be safer.

Originally posted by 💀:

Everything here is because ng+ is inconsistent, not because the game sucks. The game is amazing before ng+ and i wish it were after too.

I dont really understand how anything here has to do with NG+? All these issues exist in NG, I dont even really understand what you mean by NG+ being inconsistent.

[💀]

Originally posted by Why can't Light win ASL:

This doesnt really have anything to do with build variety, this might sound rude but this is just a lack of game knowledge, there are good reason that there are certain things that work on hit and other on attack, like rhythm should probably not work on attack instead of hit and shuriken should probably not work on hit instead of attack.

Right now i am leveling each character evenly (each on 30lvl, going for ng+3) and while playing bow, using normal attacks just to utilize throwing stars feels awkward. If an argument would be made that this trinket was made for fast melee weapons then i would agree.
BUT
I am upset because of the fact that they made them this way. Its not about if they are balanced or not. I dont care about balance at all or if something deals more dmg or is faster or whatever but when i use my fast bow with arrow volley and gusts of wind i am blasting through floors like butter and then there are tremors that dont work with whirlwind and i cant do the same. I care about if its playable and with tremors it isnt. They could make it so it works with melee weapon hits (just spawn the tremor underneath the enemy hit just like the gusts of wind are created behind the enemy hit) and it would work the same way for normal attacks + it would work with whirlwind.

Originally posted by Why can't Light win ASL:

It doesnt make you play safe and slow, it gives you more control in what you pull and gives a big damage boost which certain skills can utilize pretty well, there is no reason to play slow or be safer.

I actually saw a video of a guy doing ng+50 with like 10k health where one enemy was hitting him for like 2500 in a single sudden attack so i would completly understand this argument in this manner.
BUT
Getting this trinket in a not so hard run feels like nothing changed at all. If they would add trinkets or moddifiers like projectile speed or projectile lifetime (it is also a good argument for getting more build variety in the game, imaging staking projectile life time for simple bow arrows to make assasins mask better or for lightning ball which would fly across the room with so much life time) or even range (for example casting area of effects further away).

Originally posted by Why can't Light win ASL:

I dont really understand how anything here has to do with NG+? All these issues exist in NG, I dont even really understand what you mean by NG+ being inconsistent.

Maybe inconsistent is a bad word, i agree. Its just that the game becomes much harded which makes certain things appear weaker and some stronger.

I would like to know which ng+ are you on rn and learn more about a game.
From what i can share, Ive found out that if you get enough of spell cooldown (for me it was -80% spell cooldown) for rogues shivs the cooldown disappears and the cast is instant (the only thing making it faster at that point is cast speed) which is probably a bug but nonetheless hella fun to make a build around.

Bye!

[Why can't Light win ASL]

Originally posted by 💀:

Right now i am leveling each character evenly (each on 30lvl, going for ng+3) and while playing bow, using normal attacks just to utilize throwing stars feels awkward. If an argument would be made that this trinket was made for fast melee weapons then i would agree.
BUT
I am upset because of the fact that they made them this way. Its not about if they are balanced or not. I dont care about balance at all or if something deals more dmg or is faster or whatever but when i use my fast bow with arrow volley and gusts of wind i am blasting through floors like butter and then there are tremors that dont work with whirlwind and i cant do the same. I care about if its playable and with tremors it isnt. They could make it so it works with melee weapon hits (just spawn the tremor underneath the enemy hit just like the gusts of wind are created behind the enemy hit) and it would work the same way for normal attacks + it would work with whirlwind.

I understand that you had this idea for a build and then it turned out it wouldnt work, if the greataxe whirlwind worked like the shortbow volley where it continues to attack as you channel it would work.

The way I see it is that things for differently for a reason, sometimes we cant identify the reason as a player but that doesnt mean it isnt there, when I play a game I just engage with the game as it is especially with a lot of design decisions like this.

Originally posted by 💀:

I actually saw a video of a guy doing ng+50 with like 10k health where one enemy was hitting him for like 2500 in a single sudden attack so i would completly understand this argument in this manner.
BUT
Getting this trinket in a not so hard run feels like nothing changed at all. If they would add trinkets or moddifiers like projectile speed or projectile lifetime (it is also a good argument for getting more build variety in the game, imaging staking projectile life time for simple bow arrows to make assasins mask better or for lightning ball which would fly across the room with so much life time) or even range (for example casting area of effects further away).

I generally agree with this, this is one of my main issues with the game, the fact that very little changes the way things work mechanically, there is no way to add pierce, chains, splits, forks, more porj, faster proj or for melee getting any attack reach or area. Every weapon will be the same at level 1 and level 100 except just faster.

Originally posted by 💀:

Maybe inconsistent is a bad word, i agree. Its just that the game becomes much harded which makes certain things appear weaker and some stronger.

I would like to know which ng+ are you on rn and learn more about a game.
From what i can share, Ive found out that if you get enough of spell cooldown (for me it was -80% spell cooldown) for rogues shivs the cooldown disappears and the cast is instant (the only thing making it faster at that point is cast speed) which is probably a bug but nonetheless hella fun to make a build around.

Bye!

NG+ does increase the difficulty and that difficulty increase becomes greater and greater until you go from positive armor to negative armor, after that the difficulty increase actually becomes smaller and smaller every NG+.

I am on NG+22, I personally dont think spells are that good because they fall off around NG+8. I havent played spells that much and havent tried every build but it feels like spells really start to lack damage because they dont scale well enough, while weapon builds actually feel pretty constant in damage, even as you go up NG+ it feels pretty similar.

Thats not to say there arent builds that do high NG+, I just havent seen them and my experiences with spells give me the impression they start to fall off.

[Celgaming]

Many have written here and given a lot for OP to think about but I'll chime in as I just got my last character beyond NG+6 very easily, all solo and it's a melee class.

The game definitely wants you to do two things:

- Get a ranged character as high as possible to farm gear that is item level 50 to 60 (usually sorcerer or wizard, because both scale insanely well and are easy to play)
- Level every character to 40 to get massive bonuses to stats
- Kill, loot and do everything to gain free stats.

I've seen people say that leveling rogues is pointless because "all you get is trap damage reduction" yet they haven't stepped on spikes in NG+10 with a few curse points on them. However all classes also give FREE stats, which become very important later on. With the most recent patch stats play a much higher purpose even.

If you level a warlock to 40 or 50 it helps all the other characters massively to not melt away in the later magic heavy stages. Then attuning for all the elemental defense trinkets and slapping an enchant for electricity goes a long way.

The last stage also becomes much easier with a simple, even low level, shield, as it blocks projectile damage by a ton. Many yelled at me (purists, elitist type mentality players) that leveling STR is pointless on every character, but you don't have to put points in STR as a wizard.

Simply level a Paladin and Warrior because every 10th level they gain gives free STR for everyone. Reach high enough and now all your characters can put on a shield.

Gear also comes in tiers, not just ilvl. There are certain high tier shields you can get at very low ilvl, meaning they block 50 projectile damage AND require very little STR. Upgrade these shields to +10 and whenever you find an up unequip all your gear and put the shield on.

Imps can give +5 levels to gear and these go beyond the 10 limit the smith has, meaning you can turn that one shield into a great stat stick if you want. This also applies to all other gears in the game. Hats in this game all have different stats depending if it's leather, plate or cloth. Same with gloves. Same with capes.

You don't need ilevel 100 gear to do well. You can even modify lower tiered stuff. I'm sure this is a ♥♥♥♥ strategy again by the elitist players but I for one think it made hunting for some lower ilvl gear fun, because they can last a very long time.

[The Surgeon]

Have all characters at NG4, love the challenge. 3 characters are stronger but only really because they need less specific trinkets to become OP. Progression seems fine
Looks like from the achievements only 3.5% of players have made it this far, which is a shame. Because ng+4 introduces shadow covered trinket chests, which spawn a bunch of new shadow enemies but also drop a random stat permanent +3 to stats. I get 3-4 a run, so even maxed out at 40, I get 9-12 more stat points each run.

[Why can't Light win ASL]

Originally posted by The Surgeon:

Have all characters at NG4, love the challenge. 3 characters are stronger but only really because they need less specific trinkets to become OP. Progression seems fine
Looks like from the achievements only 3.5% of players have made it this far, which is a shame. Because ng+4 introduces shadow covered trinket chests, which spawn a bunch of new shadow enemies but also drop a random stat permanent +3 to stats. I get 3-4 a run, so even maxed out at 40, I get 9-12 more stat points each run.

The stat boosting items and cursed chests are from the latest update not from NG+4, they now drop on any NG+ level.