Remove Shadow Curse mechanic entirely.

[Sully]

Does anybody enjoy this? Make the enemies harder instead. This curse just feels bad to play with.

[DJDiceZ]

Y'all way overblow how bad the curse is. And no, the shadow portals are a fun risk vs reward choice. The shadow gain from enemies, easily avoided and cleansed. Sometimes even desireable if you want to go glass cannon, which often is better than to go for overly defensive beyond a certain point.

If enemies are gonna one shot you regardless you might aswell have damage aswell.

[Vandom]

I hate the shadow curse from enemies. It might be the single most annoying thing that has almost entirely spoiled my desire to continue playing the game. Rather than trying to dodge all the attacks that apply it, I'd rather just not play.

Shadow Curse before NG+ was a simple risk reward mechanic that brought a lot of amusement whenever it showed up or got out of hand. But later scaling and enemies applying it just ruins it.

Nearly 70 hours and I have yet to find either the enchantment or drink to lower shadow curse. Even if I do finally find them, having to then use them constantly to avoid this mechanic isn't something I look forward to.

[kamehapa]

I think high NG+ Shadow curse is a bit too punishing, and I would like the curse dealers on court to be a bit more distinctive. I also don't like that is literally just subtracts armor and resistance instead of being some other sort of multiplier (same as with the NG+ Mechanic also being problematic).

Other than those nitpicks I am fine with the mechanic.

[Ruebeus]

No.
Shadow Curse is not that bad. At all. Even on NG+.
There are plenty of ways to avoid and remove it if you dont want it. And the game needs a way to stay risky, especially considering how quickly and easily you become OP and one shot everything.

Shadow Curse stays. You'll just have to get good.

[Ruebeus]

Originally posted by kamehapa:

I also don't like that is literally just subtracts armor and resistance instead of being some other sort of multiplier (same as with the NG+ Mechanic also being problematic).

There are many ways to counter this permanently. And you are expected to if you want to survive. It is all part of the progression system. You can get elemental resistance upgrades and upgrading your gear increases your armor. Plus there is food you can take that gives a huge 50 elemental resistance. Thats enough to counter the debuff at NG+3.

[kamehapa]

Originally posted by Ruebeus:

Originally posted by kamehapa:

I also don't like that is literally just subtracts armor and resistance instead of being some other sort of multiplier (same as with the NG+ Mechanic also being problematic).

There are many ways to counter this permanently. And you are expected to if you want to survive. It is all part of the progression system. You can get elemental resistance upgrades and upgrading your gear increases your armor. Plus there is food you can take that gives a huge 50 elemental resistance. Thats enough to counter the debuff at NG+3.

My Guy, NG +3 is -600 armor, sure. I am currently running NG +13, this is -2600 armor and each tick of Shadow Curse is another -17. You can't out scale that with gear and levels in Paladin, and I am not exactly on the frontier of runs.

It's not that this mechanic even makes the game unplayable, it just makes the stats irrelevant because of how they scale when they go into the negatives, which I don't think is healthy for the game.

[Nachoproblemz]

Originally posted by Ruebeus:

No.
Shadow Curse is not that bad. At all. Even on NG+.
There are plenty of ways to avoid and remove it if you dont want it. And the game needs a way to stay risky, especially considering how quickly and easily you become OP and one shot everything.

Shadow Curse stays. You'll just have to get good.

Yes.
Shadow Curse is a garbage mechanic that has no place in this game and adds nothing to the overall experience. Make the mobs harder instead. F*cking over melee is not a smart way to handle NG+.

It has nothing to do with "get good". It's a dumb mechanic, and anyone that supports it is completely clueless.

[Sully]

Originally posted by Vandom:

I hate the shadow curse from enemies. It might be the single most annoying thing that has almost entirely spoiled my desire to continue playing the game. Rather than trying to dodge all the attacks that apply it, I'd rather just not play.

Shadow Curse before NG+ was a simple risk reward mechanic that brought a lot of amusement whenever it showed up or got out of hand. But later scaling and enemies applying it just ruins it.

Nearly 70 hours and I have yet to find either the enchantment or drink to lower shadow curse. Even if I do finally find them, having to then use them constantly to avoid this mechanic isn't something I look forward to.

Yes this. Shadow Curse from other sources is fine. Shadow Curse from enemies makes me not want to play the game. It's not about difficulty or "get good" it's just not a fun way to play the game. There are plenty of other options to prevent you from becoming too OP (although that's not even a particularly worthy goal since repetitive, high-level end game grinding was part of the first game, too.)

[ND - KZ]

How I feel about Shadow Curse after 80h:

while trying to get the first NG clear on all classes: "no, no get that thing away from me."
getting through NG+1: "I get Shadow Curse from enemy attacks now? This is the worst thing ever."
NG+2 - NG+5: "If I take risks with Shadow Curse I can get more damage through cursed trinkets, I'm cool with that."

I'm currently pushing NG+6 and above on Sorcerer and planning to do that with Wizard, Ranger, and Rogue too if I have time. Right now 1 Shadow Curse = minus 9 defensive stat drop, compare that to the stats some Trinkets gives me I'm feeling more towards disliking Shadow Curse again, but that's more on how most Trinkets dont scale with your character rather than hating Shadow Curse mechanic.

For what improvement I want to see regarding Shadow Curse: more visual clarity on what attacks can give players Shadow Curse would be nice, a delay on the green robe mage's attack, or less tracking, or less projectile distance, or less HP on green mage, any 2 of those 4 would do

[アンジェル]

Originally posted by Sully:

Remove Shadow Curse mechanic entirely.
Does anybody enjoy this? Make the enemies harder instead. This curse just feels bad to play with.

It is awesome to play with. I wish they would expand the mechanic.

[Albinomist™®©]

What Shadow Curse mechanic are we talking about? Just dont get them? its easy to avoid.

[Martial Autist]

Originally posted by Ruebeus:

No.
Shadow Curse is not that bad. At all. Even on NG+.
There are plenty of ways to avoid and remove it if you dont want it. And the game needs a way to stay risky, especially considering how quickly and easily you become OP and one shot everything.

Shadow Curse stays. You'll just have to get good.

Git gud just comes across as a bit snarky in conversations like this. Especially when the feedback is very mixed for this mechanic in it's current iteration. The main question many are having is the degree of specific alterations they think should be made. Git gud is about self-improvement when a lack of skill or knowledge is the issue. It is supposed to be encouragement, if sometimes a little backhanded or trolling. Not to ignore conceptual objections to mechanics and write it off as a skill issue when someone is giving honest feedback.

Things are a bit more nuanced, and I think there is room for disagreement. The guy even said make enemies harder. He doesn't seem to want an easy ride but for the game to be, in his eyes, better. Which I totally get. For it to get balanced properly across the different builds and playstyles. Many of the ppl managing and progressing have at least some nitpicks.

For example I'm fine with keeping shadow curse around but I think that it should be an optional mechanic with it's own challenges, rewards, and achievements, as part of a much larger challenge system with greater risks and rewards. Aside from the shadow curse skill orbs, those are fine on their own and could even do with being a bit more common. But I digress. Some kind of challenge system would also be a good excuse to add a new building, one to be the counterpart to the current architect building. I think I would find it a lot more fun to engage with shadow curse then. But I think it needs to be fleshed out more regardless.

For example if we keep it in the base NG+ experience one Idea I have is making it so that shadow curse skill orbs use stacks as currency to buy things. Guarantee one such orb say every few floors. Then turn stacks purged in that way into benefits for the +power stuff instead of using current stacks. Lower the cap on active stacks in order to make shadow skill orb choices impactful and keep the amount of +power that you can obtain in check. Also adjust the debuff per stack in light of this. Then finally have a fully purging pyre before every boss to offload remaining stacks if desired, which would not count towards anything. So players can decide whether to keep more to purge later at higher risk, or offload sooner at no reward. Or something loosely along those lines at least, I'm just spitballing.

But I think at least something is needed to make shadow curse punishing only in the short term (i.e. on a per few floors basis), and beneficial in the long term if managed well. and still relevant throughout the run. Without being a constant drag by cutting into multiple tavern and suffix slots, or stacking high enough for melee to be discouraged over hit and run spell builds. It would also eliminate the need to reduce curse gain chance. Because it certainly felt a bit jarring after leveling all characters through NG first before really starting NG+.

The game is off to a very strong start. Then suddenly I'm playing what I at least feel is a more limiting version of the game, as a substitute for maintaining a workable balance across NG+(++++++etc). That sense of whiplash I think is the biggest reason why a lot of ppl have mixed feelings on it. Though specific reasons vary. For me it is that for the first dozen hours or so leveling the classes I see a well-crafted gear and stat based dungeon crawler/looter. With a good sense of progression, and systems for food bonuses and both prefix and suffix enchants, a variety of classes, specializations, and weapon types. All working towards what could be a very diverse range of builds and playstyles and even minor tweaks here and there.

I see nothing but options. Basically HoH1 only better and more flexible. But then those options get noticably limited due to various other factors. Among which shadow curse gain which increases as you go to higher NG+ (which cuts noticably into your tavern buffs and suffixes as a base requirement, unless you lean fully into the shadow curse buffs). Or how we have STR and DEX characters building INT in order to progress through higher NG+, sometimes even wearing gear from a different class altogether because that is more optimal.

I think despite the game's strengths there are also just individually small design flaws which in a vacuum would not be so bad, but together snowball into an overall worse experience. To me it just feels like a waste of this game's potential, especially after such a strong start.

[Ketec]

What sucks is that the small braziers get worse and worse with every ng, so you don't even have options to cleanse it.

NG+ up already render all resistance trinkets and foods effectively useless - they don't scale at all. Not even some class buffs scale to match.
Resistance on gear does not scale (small, and only to one of them).

You just have to resort to playing glass cannon with +100% or more extra elemental damage.
And then shadow curse on top of it.

At least give us more cleanse options or mechanics.
A random spawning NPC that can cleanse it in exchange of resources (not the imp - way too rare + rng).
A way to boost the braziers in town. Or each ng+ unlocks some additional upgrades related to resistances, shadow resist, braziers etc.

[SaeLipa]

Originally posted by Ketec:

A way to boost the braziers in town.

We already have that.

[zb.shabs]

I'm OK with getting shadow curse intentionally but I don't like the enemies that apply it. I don't care to "get gud" here, I was having fun playing it until I hit this and now it's not fun, and for me that's when I stop.