Level Capping for Better or Worse

[lucern]

I’ve got about 650 hours across the Hammerverse, and so I know the high potential this game has. Because the dev tunes the games for the better over time, I’m here to kvetch about level caps, which I understand but find tends to turn the thirst for adventure into ashes in my mouth.

Woeful Experiences of the Level-Capped:

• Trap rooms with XP treasure. Betrayal!
• Trinkets and equipment with XP boosts (and the Wizard’s XP boost). Fie!
• Midgame random meals and blessings with XP boosts. Villains!
• Imp XP gifts. I will find you in Svartalfheim.
• We sheathe our weapons and dash through toward boons, more a shameful game of tag than Gauntlet.
• Earning most of the 5 levels on the first NG+X run is just a short reprieve.
• This scenario: you fail a run after 2+ hours, a full run because you’re trying to win this time. You’re on NG 2 or 3, and you have other characters slightly behind. By this time the town is already filled in, and all your characters have bought everything. All you get for this run is the memories and an urge to uninstall.
• THIS scenario: you win a run after 2+ hours on a level capped character. Your ONLY reward is the ability to now earn XP again in a much harder context. I don’t think I’ve ever cursed out a game at the victory screen before this one.

Joyful alternatives that respect the design choice somewhat:

• Impose an XP penalty but allow some progress.
• Give a temporary boost for picking up an XP scroll when capped. Literally anything.
• Link it to NG level currently playing rather than beaten.
• Have an in town money sink so that I can do something with the half mil I’ve earned dying.
• Make level skipping equivalent to finding every secret room, blessing, meal, and skill upgrade so that we’re not hobbled while saving time trying again.
• Create a fun effect that’s a consolation prize for being level capped. “Plateaued.”
• And/or prevent runs that start level capped from spawning the above joyless trap rooms/trinkets/imps.

Yes, yes, in the discussions someone always wins every run. But frankly, most runs for most players end in death. I’ve played with you and picked you up a lot. Besides, levels don’t nearly match the difficulty NG+X brings. Let the maniacs who think the game is easy play on NG+800 where they’ll be happiest.

[Dusklite]

Good job writing this!

I do get the need for level caps, since so much is in terms of power is tied to the level, even beyond the character you are currently playing. But yeah, finding wasted stuff and skipping enemies is probably not the way the game should be played and yet, here we are.

I would like to see the combination of linking XP gain to actually playing harder NG levels, with substantially reduced XP gain on lower NG levels than you should play, to... well, not exactly slow down progression as such, but rather to incentivise the risk/reward approach more.

I also do agree that starting from deeper maps shouldn't punish you the way it does now, but rather than getting you all loot from all potential secrets (which I think is also not a fixed number), I'd be happy to get at least all skill orbs - since they pretty much lie out in the open anyway.

The rest I think is also pretty much on point.

Here's what I think:
Some long-term progression would be nice. Something like leveling a weapon class by gaining XP or a subclass which both give small passive upgrades to the character or the roster. Something that you can grind out on the appropriate NG level if you absolutely need the little bit of extra oomph or gain fast and kinda easy up to a point if you play higher NG levels.
(Let's be honest, the weapon leveling by trading in skill points that's currently in the game feels kind of pointless unless you absolutely don't have anything else to sink those points in. Smells like doing something different with the system. Like giving alternative attacks to weapon classes or having actual milestones or a tree that you have to make decisions on...)

Resource sinks are sorely needed. If you can progress meaningfully after hitting the level cap (and you cannot beat or do not care to beat the next NG level for the grind) it makes runs so much more meaningful. Once you stop needing gold for any character, it feels like you actually plateaued for now regarding the whole game, I think. At least that's how I feel.
Since the campaign is pretty short, higher NG runs become more of a slog than something I actually want to do. (Also, the balancing could use some work, but that's a different issue.)

[lucern]

Originally posted by Dusklite:

(Let's be honest, the weapon leveling by trading in skill points that's currently in the game feels kind of pointless unless you absolutely don't have anything else to sink those points in. Smells like doing something different with the system. Like giving alternative attacks to weapon classes or having actual milestones or a tree that you have to make decisions on...)

Ain't that the truth! They're the most useless stars in the game so far. I really like your idea of committing to one of these and developing it with its own progression, which would balance out the issue the dev acknowledged with the non-scalability of weapon damage.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. Thanks for your comments, and for coming to my Ted talk

[Decrapio]

Agreed.

Although I see the need for the level cap, I'd be all for several of your suggestions. Particularly:

XP scrolls grant short buff (could be a 50% duration pillar buff or something--or more interestingly, a mini stat boost for that run such as +1-5 Armour, Resistance, Weapon or Spell Power, etc.) something to make the player want to pursue the xp scroll

Definitely need to remove Wizard Orb and pillar buff that give bonus xp and allow players a way to remove trinket that gives xp bonus--or alternatively have the XP bonus transfer into some other bonus when at max level... such as bonus damage per bonus xp gain, etc.

Having a proper money sink in town would make a world of difference as well.

[lucern]

Originally posted by Decrapio:

Agreed.

Although I see the need for the level cap, I'd be all for several of your suggestions. Particularly:

XP scrolls grant short buff (could be a 50% duration pillar buff or something--or more interestingly, a mini stat boost for that run such as +1-5 Armour, Resistance, Weapon or Spell Power, etc.) something to make the player want to pursue the xp scroll

Definitely need to remove Wizard Orb and pillar buff that give bonus xp and allow players a way to remove trinket that gives xp bonus--or alternatively have the XP bonus transfer into some other bonus when at max level... such as bonus damage per bonus xp gain, etc.

Having a proper money sink in town would make a world of difference as well.

Yeah I mostly think it should be there too, just, without as much chaff. I really like your idea of a small boost to a random stat. Say, 3 + NG+X. I'd go through a trap for that. It'd even be a little like getting an extra character level in a temporary way.

And the need for a money sink is so real. I just died on NG+3 with my warlock, level capped in the Dark Halls, with nothing to show for it at all in the entire run. Feels bad. I also won on NG+2 with my warrior after a 20 minute boss fight, level capped and nothing to show for it but NG 3. Feels bad in a different way.

[Celgaming]

Monsters do not drop anything and only give EXP. When you're level capped the only reason to kill them is so you don't get overwhelmed.

Seems like an easy fix. Add drops to monsters. Remove trinkets from chests.

Or... allow killing monsters clear your curse or gain temporary levels / skill upgrades.

[lucern]

Originally posted by Celgaming:

Monsters do not drop anything and only give EXP. When you're level capped the only reason to kill them is so you don't get overwhelmed.

Seems like an easy fix. Add drops to monsters. Remove trinkets from chests.

Or... allow killing monsters clear your curse or gain temporary levels / skill upgrades.

Yeah elites could drop trinkets in HoH 1, and it didn't have this issue of avoiding them.

In other news, lost three games today on level capped characters. I think I'll put this aside for a few months.

[Nachoproblemz]

Originally posted by lucern:

• THIS scenario: you win a run after 2+ hours on a level capped character. Your ONLY reward is the ability to now earn XP again in a much harder context. I don’t think I’ve ever cursed out a game at the victory screen before this one.

...welcome to roguelites? This is literally the gameplay loop. I'm absolutely shocked you've played 650 hours of Hammerwatch games and haven't figured this out.

Originally posted by Celgaming:

Monsters do not drop anything and only give EXP. When you're level capped the only reason to kill them is so you don't get overwhelmed.

Seems like an easy fix. Add drops to monsters. Remove trinkets from chests.

Or... allow killing monsters clear your curse or gain temporary levels / skill upgrades.

This, however, is an outstanding idea. I would LOVE mobs to drop something other than gold/health/mana.

[lucern]

Originally posted by Nachoproblemz:

...welcome to roguelites? This is literally the gameplay loop. I'm absolutely shocked you've played 650 hours of Hammerwatch games and haven't figured this out.

Funny comment but an ungenerous interpretation of my meaning at best. Name one that punishes winning this hard. Getting THIS weak relative to the NG level, and the lack of money sinks: it's a design flaw rather than a genre feature. I can name one: it's HOH1 lol. But that one had faster gameplay, so I guess I forgave it.

[DJDiceZ]

For sinks i assume and hope that in the future, they'll add some like they did with HoH1's pyramid DLC, which had a massive ore sink IIRC, maybe it was the statues. Now we need a gold and material sink. The game is still missing a lot of must have features for a good HoH sequel imo, that i'm trusting will be added over time. The game's freshly released.

I'm not in favor of removing level cap in the slightest, but i do think that the XP is earned too fast sometimes, and that reaching the ceiling makes XP related stuff feel bad.

The suggestion i found most logical is either a reward or buff for picking up XP, besides the XP itself. It could be a trinket effect, a drink or an equipement modifier that makes it scale off of XP gain, or some new upgrade in town that gives such bonuses.

Though some of these issues will be solved if they add ressource sinks to get stronger. A way to remove unneeded ressources from the run's rewards would be nice right now... but it's a temporary and likely unsolveable problem that would only be relevant when everyone in a lobby is playing on a fully capped character, which is a bit annoying for the game to keep track of i'd expect.

An idea i'd enjoy, is having some separate type of bonus level, maybe when you are capped, you could earn some type of special level that does not behave like a level up, except may be for giving you a star or a single point of stat to attribute. Somewhat in the vein of the paragon system in Diablo 3. Either make it really slow to earn, or cap it to the current max level, as bonus level (eg: 30 max levels + 30 bonus levels). It would at least significantly stretch and pad out the feeling of progression and the value of XP.

It may sound like it would be counter productive for those who aren't capped, but it isn't as it's still worse than a level up would be. So they'll always want to earn XP, and they'll always prefer earning a genuine level over a bonus level while they can.

Originally posted by Skyblade799:

Most roguelikes with run-to-run progression built in don't really block you from any progression

Many roguelites have either hard caps or soft caps, where you won't be able to stack up ressources/meta currency without making progress past a certain point. It usually comes in the form of penalties on ressources earned or caps on ressources earned. Some examples are Rogue Legacy, Undermine, and IIRC Gunfire Reborn used to have some soft cap that got removed, but i could be confusing another game. Maybe Space Robinson too, but that's a small unsuccessful game. I don't remember if Dead Cells does it too or not.

This here is just that, a cap on ressource earned. It's still a _rogue_lite, not an RPG. There has to be some rogue element, where your progression is dependent on your skill, not endless grinding.

So yes, they do block you from progression in a way or another. You need to make a certain ammount of progress. You can't always "just play" and get stronger everytime.

[lucern]

Originally posted by DJDiceZ:

An idea i'd enjoy, is having some separate type of bonus level, maybe when you are capped, you could earn some type of special level that does not behave like a level up, except may be for giving you a star or a single point of stat to attribute. Somewhat in the vein of the paragon system in Diablo 3. Either make it really slow to earn, or cap it to the current max level, as bonus level (eg: 30 max levels + 30 bonus levels). It would at least significantly stretch and pad out the feeling of progression and the value of XP.

I appreciate your transparent reasoning here. While I think you tolerate the cap better than I do, we seem to agree that the way it works could be far more fun via temporary boosts, money sinks, and the like.

This quoted idea in particular would be a great implementation of being 'plateaued.' In my four consecutive deaths in my capped wizard, I could attune a couple of trinkets, and it would be, like Rogue Legacy, that my ancestors are helping in a small way even if skill and luck are the better predictors of success than grinding.

[Celgaming]

Feels like this board is getting dictated by roguelite experts telling others their opinions are trash or that's how I feel by the response I was quoted in. I'll reiterate then:

When your main reward after finishing a rough NG is 5 more levels, both character and ilevel, it kills your motivation because the climb is usually very minor. The penalty to defenses so far at NG+4 where I'm at feels absurd. Fully upgraded gear, optimized for my build, now nets me in the negatives of both armor and elements. Trinkets scale terribly, even when attuned. 50 resistances in everything amount to nothing and all trinkets with 30-50 damage mean nothing in the face of monsters that have 10-20,000 health pools.

All I'm saying is that on higher difficulties the class variety shrinks. I tend to do solo forest and cave runs to try and desperately get new tier equipment, to upgrade, only to then replace them as I make progress. Also I might return to a previous NG just to get those 5 levels done for stats, store purchases and much needed skill points.

But the worst thing to me is that you can be boosted by others. Join someone in NG+8 and leech some drops. Congratulations you skipped multiple farming loops. Then there's the hand-me-down gear from another character. I love it, but this almost incentives powering through with one character to get to the good stuff and then passing them down. Why are there no level requirements in gear and only stat requirements? The title rewards also diminish fast too. Sorcerer's mana regen bonus feels worthless beyond the beginning while the wizard spell damage scales really well thanks to % damage scaling on most spells. One is clearly superior to the other and worth climbing levels with.

I might be a beginner to these deep-depth conversations in roguelites or whatever, but poorly thought out game design is what I see here.

For example, beyond level 20 a sorcerers levels should start to add % based mana regen instead of flat bonuses. Same with those terrible trinkets once attuned. Doubling 50 damage to 100 means nothing in the face of those 10-20,000 health pool monsters, but % increases in damage? Crit? Crit chance? Parry chance? Those become the ONLY options and variety goes down the drain.

I'm still enjoying the game and think it's fun as hell, even if the stage designs are slowly becoming way too familiar to me to the point I can almost tell where the secret rooms are at.

[lucern]

Originally posted by Celgaming:

When your main reward after finishing a rough NG is 5 more levels, both character and ilevel, it kills your motivation because the climb is usually very minor. The penalty to defenses so far at NG+4 where I'm at feels absurd. Fully upgraded gear, optimized for my build, now nets me in the negatives of both armor and elements. Trinkets scale terribly, even when attuned. 50 resistances in everything amount to nothing and all trinkets with 30-50 damage mean nothing in the face of monsters that have 10-20,000 health pools.

All I'm saying is that on higher difficulties the class variety shrinks.

Roguelite wonkiness of the thread aside, you describe the exact feeling that causes me to rage quit upon victory. Like you and practically everyone else who's posted, I don't see this experience as endemic to the genre, and it's fixable at that. People have their own changes in mind, but I see wide agreement in this thread and others about the climb being less enjoyable than it could be because of its steepness and the need to basically, as you point out, play one way to survive. When I see people recommending spellcasting powered warrior and paladin builds as the only way to advance, it seems like things aren't going as intended.

[Nachoproblemz]

Originally posted by Skyblade799:

Originally posted by Nachoproblemz:

...welcome to roguelites? This is literally the gameplay loop. I'm absolutely shocked you've played 650 hours of Hammerwatch games and haven't figured this out.


This, however, is an outstanding idea. I would LOVE mobs to drop something other than gold/health/mana.

"Welcome to roguelites"? I've been playing these long enough to know that's the dumbest comment I've heard in a long time.

Lol, pot meet kettle. Not my fault you are clueless about how roguelites work. Maybe be a better gamer and you won't get so butthurt over a normal mechanic in the genre.

[Irrelevant]

From my noobie point of view... Give one attribute point per level up and a skill point per 5 level ups and make it a cray cray long grind so even people with 100+ hours on max level only get 5ish points. So noone can complain that there is nothing to gain and it should be easier then remove all useless spawns if a toon is max level.

A more realistic approach... leave it as it is and code "HAHA!" into the game every time a max level toon picks up a XP item.

[Dusklite]

Originally posted by Irrelevant:

From my noobie point of view... Give one attribute point per level up and a skill point per 5 level ups and make it a cray cray long grind so even people with 100+ hours on max level only get 5ish points. So noone can complain that there is nothing to gain and it should be easier then remove all useless spawns if a toon is max level.

A more realistic approach... leave it as it is and code "HAHA!" into the game every time a max level toon picks up a XP item.

I hope you aren't serious and your post is actually irrelevant.

How is that fixing anything? It breaks absolutely everything. The game balance, the character development, builds, equipment.
Everything.