Remove Shadow Curse.. it just isnt fun =/

[Ellohime]

I dont find this mechanic compelling or fun. It makes runs feel bad and inconsistent. If it has to stay, remove it from NG+ where it becomes an annoying hassle. I dont mind trade curse stacks for benefits but otherwise, miss me with this. Thoughts from the community? am I alone here?

[Get a Cleu]

Originally posted by Dusklite:

Removing it I can't really get behind. But it's too random, too punishing and too biased.

Too random: lower shadow curse gain might give you less stacks, but even with only 30% you can get unlucky. Getting curse upgrades to your stats is neat, not finding any curse shops is not. Even finding shops and then getting only upgrades to weapon power on a spell build sucks.

Too punishing: higher NG+ runs come with bigger penalties out of the box already. Getting curse stacked on top can break you easily. And if you feel that you have to use all anti-curse starting options to manage it, you are basically gimping yourself at the gate.

Too biased: melee characters have a far bigger issue with it. Any added tankiness of those classes melt away pretty quickly making your Warrior about as good a melee fighter as your Wizard if you aren't careful. There's also no added benefit not to play as a ranged class if this game mechanic or the other stats and penalties around it do not change.

I mean, sure. High curse runs with incredible power are fun. But so is winning the lottery. I do get that a rogue-lite has elements of randomness between each run, but if starts to predominantly matters what curse shop upgrades you get or if your 30% curse gain actually evens out to roughly a 70% curse protection or if you find curse resist trinkets or pyres, then you don't even need to play this anymore unless you have something like a seed checker to see if the run will be worth playing or just wasting your time.

Anyways, just my $0.02

A big thing with roguelites is pushing through with skill and using everything you learn to your advantage. Curse maxes at 100 and thats kinda just like moving up a ng+ or two. That being said pushing hp/resistances down for player and up for mobs/bosses is kinda a boring way to add to play time and is more of an issue than curses.

[Dusklite]

Originally posted by Get a Cleu:

Originally posted by Dusklite:

Removing it I can't really get behind. But it's too random, too punishing and too biased.

Too random: lower shadow curse gain might give you less stacks, but even with only 30% you can get unlucky. Getting curse upgrades to your stats is neat, not finding any curse shops is not. Even finding shops and then getting only upgrades to weapon power on a spell build sucks.

Too punishing: higher NG+ runs come with bigger penalties out of the box already. Getting curse stacked on top can break you easily. And if you feel that you have to use all anti-curse starting options to manage it, you are basically gimping yourself at the gate.

Too biased: melee characters have a far bigger issue with it. Any added tankiness of those classes melt away pretty quickly making your Warrior about as good a melee fighter as your Wizard if you aren't careful. There's also no added benefit not to play as a ranged class if this game mechanic or the other stats and penalties around it do not change.

I mean, sure. High curse runs with incredible power are fun. But so is winning the lottery. I do get that a rogue-lite has elements of randomness between each run, but if starts to predominantly matters what curse shop upgrades you get or if your 30% curse gain actually evens out to roughly a 70% curse protection or if you find curse resist trinkets or pyres, then you don't even need to play this anymore unless you have something like a seed checker to see if the run will be worth playing or just wasting your time.

Anyways, just my $0.02

A big thing with roguelites is pushing through with skill and using everything you learn to your advantage. Curse maxes at 100 and thats kinda just like moving up a ng+ or two. That being said pushing hp/resistances down for player and up for mobs/bosses is kinda a boring way to add to play time and is more of an issue than curses.

I know how rogue-lites work, thanks.

What I was trying to say is that with too many moving RNG parts, runs seem to be lost while you are still playing or - and that's arguably worse - you can feel like Lady Luck hates you and pushing this run through with skill is tedious and so much more prone to fail than say, getting one damage upgrade for your curse.

You can actually say "skill issue" to any problem. Thing is, that doesn't make the game more fun. I wouldn't mind being challenged by the game with increasing NG+ levels, but with less things I don't have control over. There's already enough RNG in the trinket system and the skill upgrade system that can make your run five times harder if you aren't lucky.

I would argue that the best roguelikes and rogue-lites I've played were challenging in a way that when I lost I was aware it was actually my fault and not just technically because I wasn't skilled enough to defeat my own rotten luck.

[Sir von Schneckerich II]

Originally posted by Ellohime:

I dont find this mechanic compelling or fun. It makes runs feel bad and inconsistent. If it has to stay, remove it from NG+ where it becomes an annoying hassle. I dont mind trade curse stacks for benefits but otherwise, miss me with this. Thoughts from the community? am I alone here?

cant agree with you. if i dont want to have curses i never have more than around 10 on stacks and this is not that hard. you get enough options to reduce them or you play with it and use special treats from them

[Dusklite]

Originally posted by Sir von Schneckerich II:

Originally posted by Ellohime:

I dont find this mechanic compelling or fun. It makes runs feel bad and inconsistent. If it has to stay, remove it from NG+ where it becomes an annoying hassle. I dont mind trade curse stacks for benefits but otherwise, miss me with this. Thoughts from the community? am I alone here?

cant agree with you. if i dont want to have curses i never have more than around 10 on stacks and this is not that hard. you get enough options to reduce them or you play with it and use special treats from them

Is that still true for you playing a melee class in NG+2 or higher?

Because my issues with the mechanic started around that level (and really noticeable with my melee classes).
If not, please tell me how you can play a tank class build when you can get to max curse so quickly, even with only 30% Shadow Curse Gain. And if your answer is "don't play a build like that" or "kite enemies more and don't get hit so often" or something like that, then I rest my case and say the mechanic isn't fun in its current state.

[uberfrag+.]

Originally posted by Raim:

They could add curse resistance, or perhaps something at the Architect that makes it less likely to receive curse.

They have... I have gear that has -10% Shadow Curse Gain on several. Also, you don't need to use those 3 available upgrades, I skip it most of the times and still beat the game first try, I only died to one boss, the 4th I think, all other bosses mechanics didnt hurt me for 1% HP, Paladin with 300+ Resi to all and 400+ armor ftw. At the end of your turn you'll have like 40-50 trinkets, so those 3 extra options you get from getting shadow curse isn't worthed at all.

There also are -shadow curse gain trinkets (+set bonus) like Sanctified Water (Drinking a potion sets your shadow curse gain to 0% for 30 seconds; set 2: -10% SC gain, set 3: -10% SC gain, set 4: +3 SP per focus). So if you don't find these things in your run maybe just skip the purple cloud.

[Hotzenplotz]

Originally posted by uberfrag+.:

Originally posted by Raim:

They could add curse resistance, or perhaps something at the Architect that makes it less likely to receive curse.

They have... I have gear that has -10% Shadow Curse Gain on several. Also, you don't need to use those 3 available upgrades, I skip it most of the times and still beat the game first try, I only died to one boss, the 4th I think, all other bosses mechanics didnt hurt me for 1% HP, Paladin with 300+ Resi to all and 400+ armor ftw. At the end of your turn you'll have like 40-50 trinkets, so those 3 extra options you get from getting shadow curse isn't worthed at all.

There also are -shadow curse gain trinkets (+set bonus) like Sanctified Water (Drinking a potion sets your shadow curse gain to 0% for 30 seconds; set 2: -10% SC gain, set 3: -10% SC gain, set 4: +3 SP per focus). So if you don't find these things in your run maybe just skip the purple cloud.

The problem are higher ng+ levels. Lets take paladin, he doesn´t do much dps but has to be close to deal damage....so you can´t simply crash those curse dealing enemies, but you have to hit and run wait for cooldowns and repeat.... Not a fun gameplay cycle. If you stay in melee for longer without killing them quickly you add up so much curses you are likely to die. For high dps chars or ranged caster this is less of a problem.

[angelsenvy228]

It's really fine after you unlock the pyre in the town and upgrade it, but it's pretty rough in NG+1 before that, I had 100 curse but just keep playing and unlock the pyre

[Dusklite]

Originally posted by angelsenvy228:

It's really fine after you unlock the pyre in the town and upgrade it, but it's pretty rough in NG+1 before that, I had 100 curse but just keep playing and unlock the pyre

Come back when you play in NG+2 or higher with a melee build.

It's just not fun. Doable or not, you are shooting yourself in the foot trying to play, say, Paladin as a melee class instead of a caster.

And I would like to think that this is not intentional.

[Zell0w]

Just finnished NG+7, just take the drink that has 50% chance to resist shadowcurse for 35 pure dmg and you will be fine.

[Dusklite]

Originally posted by Zell0w:

Just finnished NG+7, just take the drink that has 50% chance to resist shadowcurse for 35 pure dmg and you will be fine.

Did a quick check: you did that with a Wizard if your achievements are telling the story correctly.

It's always been easy with a Wizard. And fun.
Do it with a Paladin. Warrior has an easier time but even that would be mildly impressive.

I personally stopped playing after getting all characters to NG+2 now and wait for some updates, because for some it's just a chore and for others... I dunno, content is currently a bit lacking to grind out NG levels for the heck of it, I guess.

[Hotzenplotz]

Originally posted by Dusklite:

Originally posted by Zell0w:

Just finnished NG+7, just take the drink that has 50% chance to resist shadowcurse for 35 pure dmg and you will be fine.

Did a quick check: you did that with a Wizard if your achievements are telling the story correctly.

It's always been easy with a Wizard. And fun.
Do it with a Paladin. Warrior has an easier time but even that would be mildly impressive.

I personally stopped playing after getting all characters to NG+2 now and wait for some updates, because for some it's just a chore and for others... I dunno, content is currently a bit lacking to grind out NG levels for the heck of it, I guess.

Yeah, ranged can easily avoid 99% of the curses by simply firing and take a step back around a corner. It still is a nuisance so. As a kind of low damage melee, who cant oneshot anything and has to stay in melee range it is way worse. You have to be kind of tanky to stay in mele range and get contant punished for doing so. And with stacking curse you get less and less tanky but still hit like a wet noodle. Not a good combination.
I gave up on strength paladin in ng4 and switched to int Dinvine caster. You run in cast divine pillars and get out fast....It works but isn´t fun and isn´t really paladin like gameplay. Atm you either are a ranged character or a melee with a stun and hefty damage so you can focus the cursing mobs while they are stunned.
Curse mechanic should have been a optional modifier you can activate and alter gameplay like what you could do with the fountain in the first game.

[Mistuh von Frothy Chutzpah]

Just get good or use things that prevent curse build up.

[Xarpus]

exist a lot against shadow curses!!

my problem is atm more, 100 shadow curse are cap..

i wanna have more shadow curses

[djcarey]

You can change it at the town though

[Biledriver]

I stopped playing after NG+2 on my Warrior because it's simply an unfun mechanic to balance. In Heroes of Hammerwatch 1, you could get lucky and have a sick ass run that felt like a little treat. Shadowcurse makes melee struggle unnecessarily when there's already a huge disadvantage to melee, and it flatly isn't fun. It does not add depth or nuance or choice to building a character, it simply punishes you for (relatively) unavoidable instances of taking damage.

Why is there a tank class (paladin) if they can't at end-game, do what they're meant to do? If they take damage, which they're designed to be able to do, they take stacks of Shadow Curse, which removes their only advantage as a class. It makes no sense, and the dev(s?) seem unnecessarily dug in on this choice, which is baffling.