Insane difficutly spike at Level 9 (epic)

[wcc]

I'm kinda puzzled how hard this level is. At level 8 I could do all the last fights without a single reload (Kane, Boron, Maeve, Aeric). But at the first fight at level 9 I barely pass the 20% mark.
Positioning is hard because there are lots of rangers swarming from lots of angles, they hit like a truck and can take a full salve of rain of arrows (and get healed). If I stand with the back to a portal and a ranger appears deciding to focus on one of my low health Champions, that's a death sentence. Maybe I can pull a quick heal here, a Command Aura or a Taunt there, but not in the frequence the enemies spawn. And they get healed.
I tried to go for max damage, I tried to immoblize them. I tried to cover in a dead end (with a portal in my back) spamming Stone Wall and Traps, but it does not make that big of a difference. Even Kane, my tank, dies in a blink of an eye if just forget him for one second. My level is locked to 12 at this point. Okay, I never spent time with crafting or enchanting, but I can't believe it will make the 80% difference.
Am I doing something fundamentally wrong, did some patch screw up the balancing here or is my party composition suddenly absolutely incompatible with that scenario? I'm okay with rewinding to hard or normal, I'm just wondering ... I got it rolling until now, and all of the sudden I only have 20 % of what it takes to win the very first fight.

[Panterich]

Each new floor brings new enemies with new skills, thus new situational combinations.
What you do wrong is that you expect same things would work, while devs tried to force the opposite.
BTW tanking should not be an option on epic unless you save/load to get the best rolls on gear.

[wcc]

The enemies don't even have new skills, but just insane hp and damage. It's not the first new floor I've encountered, but it's the first time I stumble opon the spike from "easy going" to "just forget it, there's just no way" from one encounter to the very next one.
What do you mean with I'm trying the same? Using the same heros as before? Then yes. If you mean anything else, then no: I did multiple different attempts with different skills, different equipment and different positioning. But, and that's why I'm writing here: none even brought even the slightest edge. I'm stuck at ~20%. There was not a single approach which felt significantly different regarding the overall result. If I'ld reach, say 80%, then I figure I could try to adjust that approach, but it's just a "forget it, you'll get stomped by the second wave" anyway.
Or to put in another way: I've done the last five floors with that party on epic difficulty, with highs and lows, lots of reconciling and reskilling, so I've got an idea on how it works. Until now. Now I'm not even close to win the very first encounter. So I'm questioning the balancing here and asking whether there was maybe a patch which changed the numbers or spawn rates, since I seem to be the first one complaining about that issue.

(Okay, what I haven't done yet: resetting the attributes and spend all on live and might instead of mastery and speed (for higher availablity of the skills). Maybe I'll try later, but I can't image this would do anything good.)

[Panterich]

I believe a part of the gameplay is to find a suitable solution yourself, so i`am hesistant with providing mine, unless you specifically ask for it (and it is definitely not the only one that works).

>> The enemies don't even have new skills
I can`t argue since i don`t have it installed atm, but i would suspect at least 1 new skill (or perhaps a "combo" of 2 different older skillsets put into 1 enemy, or maybe just a combination of different skills that were not in the same battle earlier) which can make a huge difference.

>> asking whether there was maybe a patch which changed the numbers or spawn rates
Not to my knowledge. There were other changes throughout game`s lifetime though. But i believe the first fight on 9th floor was never easier.

>> It's not the first new floor I've encountered
>> I seem to be the first one complaining about that
>> I stumble opon the spike from "easy going" to "just forget it, there's just no way"
That just means your initial approach and its adjustments were enough for 8 floors. Some others fail (and complain) earlier.
And don`t get me wrong, this IS a spike. And while i can`t speak for others, that was a "lets stop and tinker with everything" spot in all of my playthroughs, even when i knew what i wanted and what i was doing.

>> I'm stuck at ~20%. There was not a single approach which felt significantly different
I don`t see how that is any indication. It just shows your approach generally fails. You fire off some strong skills at first wave and spend your HP, failing to pass that wave effectively. So your party miss something that can tackle that battle.

>> Using the same heros as before
>> never spent time with crafting or enchanting
Like i said in the beginning, there are different solutions. But ignoring both of those options does limit you much.

Originally posted by wcc:

(Okay, what I haven't done yet: resetting the attributes and spend all on live and might instead of mastery and speed (for higher availablity of the skills). Maybe I'll try later, but I can't image this would do anything good.)

Just make sure you save in a different slot before that. Attribute reset "is not at its best". If you`ve used fountains/scrolls then you will not be able to get the same attributes after reset (you will not lose the points though).

[wcc]

Okay, maybe there some enemies DO have new skills, but I did not notice them. What gets me is their sheer number, their general damage output while they just can't get sniped. It's not that they are stunning or dazing my heros or run any channeling spells (expect for the melee fighters, who do a jump from time to time, but that's okay).

Regarding the crafting: I agree that's something I should start to look at now. I'm just a bit demotivated since I feel I won't make THAT big of a difference, but maybe I'll try nevertheless.

Regarding the heros: idk, the four main heros I'm using received all the blessings, while Rakhem (who's not in my party) had to eat the sacrifices to reactive the fountain above. Plus, training new heros costs quite some money and I don't know whether the game offers enough money to sustain that. So I'm quite hesitant about changing my party which feels like a waste of resources while going for weaker options (because of the missing blessings). It's a bit unlucky that the devs on the one hand wanted to encourage experimenting (especially regarding the skill tree and the items), but on the other one made you commit to one party setup.

Thanks for the warning that resetting might be irreversable! I'm l'll create a separate save game for sure.

[Panterich]

Iirc you should have enough gold to train everyone up to level 12 before floor 9 boss, and there are no new blueprints before that, and there is hardly any real challenge for some time after.

I would advice against Rakhem in your particular situation, but Whisper and Kaela are still very viable.

Kaela is strong with both skills and auto-attacks, even without any additional bonuses or gear. Apart from very-slow-moving grenade, other skills are pretty easy to learn and adapt.

Whisper can be extreamely potent with damaging skills if you have specific gear. But you can always choose different path with her that doesn`t require almost anything except gold for leveling her high enough.

[wcc]

Okay, thanks so far! If I won't end up in a situation where I can't max out my main heros' levels due to a lack of money, I'm inclined to give Whisper and maybe Kaela a chance (at the next weekend). I don't think Rakhem would have made a big difference here compared to Boron. They felt kinda similar, with Boron being a bit more rewarding if you micro him properly.

[Panterich]

Rakhem wears heavy armor, that allows him to focus on armor instead of hp. Which in turn allows him to heal up easier. I did my second playthrough with Rakhem as tank that heals himself, thus sacking both Kane and Aeric without any real problem.

Kaela doesn`t need a lot of gold for a test run. First levels cost is small and that should be enough to see how her skills function.

The difference with Whisper is that her mind control skill needs to be high enough to look helpful (second to last skill mark should be enough iirc). And if you don`t go with mind control, she needs very high skill power stat. Unlike most other champions, her first skill doesn`t provide any value in damage unless it is maxed and her skill power and mana regen are very high.

[wcc]

I never spent a single attribute point in live for Boron. He has still over 1000 hp (with items), for lots of encounters that (+ life leech) is enough if. Plus, he got all blessings for restances and armor, so he's still close to max restances, even without a shield (I prefered the sword with 65% stun rate for the off-hand instead). And if all of this did not help, Aeric's Totem fills his HP really quick.

That said, I really depend on this Totem, but not just because Boron. It's my main supplier for mana. Since I maxed out mastery on all chars and went for speed second, I really want to hammer as much skills out as possible, not caring about mana at all. With the Totem in fact cooldowns are my most limiting factor atm. Despite Aeric hating me which means negative mana regeneration. I think there was not a single descision he agreed with me. :)

Regarding Whisper's damage output: That was what I found underwhelming as well when I tested her. The loading screens promised me she'ld turn the armies to ash, and all I could do was planting some towers with low hp and applying some more damage over time, so I dumped her. But never gave her that big of a chance for redemption because I was not that interested in yet another glass canon.

Kaela felt like Maeve, but I did not give her a real chance because my party was fixed at this point (because of the blessings). I don't even know all her skills yet.

[wcc]

Update:
I MADE IT!
I replaced Boron with Whisper and dealt my damage with Meteor + Blizzard, Aeric's Ice Cloud and Maeve's Mark + Rain of Arrows.
To keep the enemies at bay I relied on Stone Wall, Mind Control to disable some healers, the Magic Tower (its earth damage was neglectable due to the high resistances), Aeric's Ent (he did not much but at least made them stop for a second or two) and Maeve's Bear Traps.
Still, it was some matter of luck that many healers spawned at the portal I was covering at. In a similar attempt I failed because there were just too many healers elsewhere on the map and all my AoE was mitigated.
Attributes and gear where completely focussed on Mastery/Spellpower and Speed/Cooldown, Whisper was even wearing the Dark Robes with the Aura of Flux.
I'm still not sure how to continue from here. Dropping Boron feels like a waste due to all the buffs he's received before. I hope I can find his place in the party again or my motivation suffers. :/ Might be irrational, but that's me. I even did not use any forge yet or craft any item because I'm somehow afraid to waste resources.

[Panterich]

Aeric doesn`t do much damage. His summons are earth and water. Those elements are not effective in most fights of late game. My advice would be to switch him with Boron. Try, test and adapt your playstyle and see which one of them is better for particular challenge (Aeric IS good at some later fights). If you can`t play anything when Aeric is swapped with Boron, then perhaps Boron is not good for your party despite any buffs.

Magic Tower is not for damage. Its job is to block specific enemies long enough. Coupled with Mind control and a Tank this allows you to manage even 3 enemy approach points.

There should be a boss at your floor and i consider that a very good point for spending your resources.

Btw Bear Traps seems underpowered to me at higher champion (and its gear) levels. I would swap it for summon or displacement skill anyday, as well as Blinding arrows in non-boss fights. it is not a bad skill, it just feels unbalanced with its progression.

[wcc]

Wow, this an interesting approach because it's completely different to my one atm. :) Aeric's role in my party is to supply health and mana with the totem, and my main goal is to reduce the cooldown on that as much as possible. The Ice Cloud was just an addition for the ork encounters since they are fairly vulnerable to water (and fire). The summons just serve to buy me some more seconds until the Totem cooldown is ready and to draw some aggro (if Rain of Arrows hit too hard and Kain's taunt is still on cooldown, or if i sprint to a portal but my "tanks" are too slow to fetch the initial hits there).
Seriously, I'm not sure how I'ld fight without the Totem (or without Revive in longer fights). :D I've never focussed on health/mana regen at all, and even leech is sparse. In fact I couldn't even image that one could fight without him. I would love to hear how you manage to sustain your party's health and mana.
I've managed the Boss fights there (the one against the Doctor Lecter and the one against the chieftain) with my old party setup (Kaine, Maeve, Aeric, Boron), and Boron Winter Wall proved really useful to draw aggro from far away enemies and to destroy totems.
I've the impression that Whisper is just a better choice in fights where you need lots of AoE, but in combats where enemies were swarming from many different angles she does not fullfil her potential and Winter Wall helps way more.
About the Bear Traps: Actually I'm just discovering them right now. They where especially useful in fights with portals and towers, because I could somewhat just snipe a portal and run to the next, with keeping the enemies from the first portal at bay with traps (and maybe Stone Wall). Or to focus on a boss and keep other spawns away from the battle field.
Plus, but I'm not sure about that, I've got the feeling that spamming them close to distant spawn points helps to fight one enemy after the other. But this would only be really effective if enemy spawns are delayed when there are still enough on the map (but trapped). I'm not sure how the spawn mechanic works. Do you have any idea whether the regular spawns can be hold back this way?
I got the impression they scale better then the bows (which force me to care about air resistance all of the sudden), because the seconds of immobilization aren't affected by health or restance of an enemy.

Edit: Okay, now I'm stuck at the first encounter with the otherwordly humans. Its not so hard to bring them down, but there are so many of them and they are so spread out that its hard to target them. There's no corner to cover or anything, so you're fighting basically in the middle of the battle field with spread-out enemies approaching from all angles, which renders even Rain of Arrows kinda useless and makes your glass-canon heros fall like flys. I'll give up for now and check next time whether dash (with pull) helps in that regard.
Fighting without Aeric failed hard. No idea how this would feasible at all. :)

[Panterich]

Originally posted by wcc:

Do you have any idea whether the regular spawns can be hold back this way?

Enemies genetally spawn regardles of whether you kill them or not. Maps with 'portal' objective are different. Some town challenges are different. Perhaps some other specific fights are also different.

Originally posted by wcc:

I got the impression they scale better then the bows

In case you mean the skill, bows are like Aeric`s water elementals - useless in most later fights on epic because of resistances. Xbow should be fine though.

Since you haven`t used Kaela`s rods or much of Whisper`s towers and probably also haven`t noticed that with bows - there is a nice trick to all of those, not sure if it was intended or not though. All those skills spawn an indestructible object (obviously except for the tower, but it also works good enough) that can act as a target for auto-targeted enemy skills. An example for that being useful would be counter to enemies that shoot 3-4 homing projectiles - as game mechanic dictates, those projectiles will try to hit as many targets as possible. So with 3 champions and 3 phantom bows in range of 4 projectiles: ~50% will hit the bows. I`ll leave it at that.

Originally posted by wcc:

Aeric's role in my party is to supply health and mana with the totem, and my main goal is to reduce the cooldown on that as much as possible. ... I'm not sure how I'ld fight without the Totem ... I've never focussed on health/mana regen at all

That means you sacrifice a whole party slot for just 1 really usefull skill. Is it that important?
You post a solution right after the 'problem'. Regen is your friend. Damage avoidance is another one.
In my experience, the game would be harder than it is without at least 1 melee champion in party. And that champion should have at least some means to heal himself aside from regeneration. But totme is not the only possible way of healing. In regards to mana, higher tiers of gear should be able to provide good portion of it via regeneration. You still need to control your mana usage. And that still holds true even with totem.

All in all, no champion is mandatory and Aeric is not an exception. Imo a champion should pull his weight first. And synergy between champions is a cherry on top of that -or- a key way to pass some specific challenge. However i`m not saying you should dump Aeric. Merely suggesting you should try to play without him. Also, boss fights are exactly where he can be quite usefull.

[wcc]

Originally posted by Panterich:

Originally posted by wcc:

Do you have any idea whether the regular spawns can be hold back this way?

Enemies genetally spawn regardles of whether you kill them or not. Maps with 'portal' objective are different. Some town challenges are different. Perhaps some other specific fights are also different.

Okay, thanks!

In case you mean the skill, bows are like Aeric`s water elementals - useless in most later fights on epic because of resistances. Xbow should be fine though.

Yeah, we were talking about alternatives to the Bear Traps, so I referenced to the Phantom Bow summon.

Since you haven`t used Kaela`s rods or much of Whisper`s towers and probably also haven`t noticed that with bows - there is a nice trick to all of those, not sure if it was intended or not though. All those skills spawn an indestructible object (obviously except for the tower, but it also works good enough) that can act as a target for auto-targeted enemy skills. An example for that being useful would be counter to enemies that shoot 3-4 homing projectiles - as game mechanic dictates, those projectiles will try to hit as many targets as possible. So with 3 champions and 3 phantom bows in range of 4 projectiles: ~50% will hit the bows. I`ll leave it at that.

I think I've noticed but haven't faced really annoying autofire skills yet. ;)

That means you sacrifice a whole party slot for just 1 really usefull skill. Is it that important?
You post a solution right after the 'problem'. Regen is your friend. Damage avoidance is another one.

It's not like his other skills are useless. They are just no game-changers. But I understand what you're pointing at. I figure I would have to start crafting if I want to drop him, because my first coy attempt failed totally.

In my experience, the game would be harder than it is without at least 1 melee champion in party. And that champion should have at least some means to heal himself aside from regeneration.

Yes, Kaine can care for himself, that's not an issue.

But totme is not the only possible way of healing. In regards to mana, higher tiers of gear should be able to provide good portion of it via regeneration. You still need to control your mana usage. And that still holds true even with totem.

Actually it doesn't. With the totem it's all about the cooldowns. Talking about my party, I never cared about bonuses to Mana or Mana Regeneration, and I spammed the skills whenever the cooldown allowed (and the situation was fitting, of course).

But yeah, as pointed out in the edit in the post above, I might need to rethink that. I just wish it would be not an issue of money at this point. Experimenting feels like its under punishment.

[Panterich]

Not related to anything specific, rather just for information. It is not a theory but actual working experience, although somewhat outdated since there were changes in crafting, but the results should not differ. It is also possible i`m confusing something with speed stat, but again, results are same. Maxed cooldowns should be at 50 speed with some additional gear bonuses (iirc) except for Kaela who can achieve that easier with her toggleable skill (iirc).Wearing adequate mana regen gear (mostly rings and necklaces) would allow --

-- Kaela to use 2 skills non-stop, and use her initial mana for 'ultimate' summon, and weapons with mana leach will allow frequent use of forth skill
-- Maeve to use rain+mark as much as needed, and with 'free' displacement skill and weapons with mana leach will allow frequent use of forth skill

Whisper can be very different, so it is more about tailoring her mana and her skills to fit each other. Its possible to raise her mana level for very frequent use of her first skill. Its possible to use her other skills non-stop without mana leaching.
Rakhem works best with mana-on-hit and requires close enemies to function effectively for long.

Originally posted by wcc:

I just wish it would be not an issue of money at this point. Experimenting feels like its under punishment.

Are you sure you did all the challenges in town? Perhaps you missed some gold piles? Have you tried asking Death for a donation?

[wcc]

Well, maybe I missed some gold at the first levels since the "H" feature to show gold was not introduced back then (I think) but this would be rather minor. I've not done all challenges yet, but some too hard and others only provide crystals. I could probably crank another 1000 Gold out of it or something alike, but nothing which would make a big difference. That said, I don't know how many tower levels and money are there to come since I'm stuck quite early on the level (I guess), when meeting the first humans.
Dunno, I could reduce the difficulty to find more money or try to cheat some gold, but I'm not that desperate yet. Next weekend or so I'll try to achieve something with a pull-focused Kaine or a Kain(15)/Maeve(15)/Boron(12)/Whisper(12)+regeneration setup and maybe some other skilltree tweaks. :)
Not sure what Death you're talking about. Do you mean the statue at the very first level? I gave him a frog back then and he wasn't to delighted, that's it.