Why the hate for this expansion's story?

[Kain]

Is the story as terrible as people say? I mean, no Dishonored game was ever knows for it's amazing narrative, great setting, detailed levels, awesome atmosphere, but not narrative, not even the previous Daud's expansions, which were superior to D1 and D2. So why the hell are people so surprised about the story on this one, how is it SPECIALLY bad?

[McDonald's]

Originally posted by ausgothic:

Originally posted by geckoman242:

This is just my opinion but I think that Billie was still deciding if she wants to kill the outsider then he shows up and says “hey let me dress you up for Halloween”. And after that she just wants revenge for the permanent Halloween costume.

Interesting idea - it would certainly provide some actual motivation for Billie,.

On a personal note, while I think there does need to be a balance between what the audience can and should extrapolate for themselves and what needs to be explained in the game proper, this was one aspect that the writers seriously dropped the ball on... Billie just didn't have the appropriate narrative backstory - for me, anyway - to be on board with why she's determined to kill the Outsider.

I agree it really just sounded like she had nothing better to do but kill a god.

[Insight of Olostromus]

Originally posted by DonGurke:

Compare it to D2 then you'll notice how horrible it actually is. The story is nonsensical and as Paranochat already said lacks any motivation whatsoever. The idea might've been great but it is ruined by horrible execution. The gameplay and level design suffer too but are overshadowed by the stupid story so you'll notice only if you pay close attention.

I found why this game sucks ball. https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2017/09/dishonored-death-of-the-outsider-writer-hired-for-tweets-was-gender-studies-major/39633/
GG Bethesda and Arkane Studios, going full with SJW by butchering down your games for those people.

[TheLastLion]

Originally posted by Insight of Olostromus:

Originally posted by DonGurke:

Compare it to D2 then you'll notice how horrible it actually is. The story is nonsensical and as Paranochat already said lacks any motivation whatsoever. The idea might've been great but it is ruined by horrible execution. The gameplay and level design suffer too but are overshadowed by the stupid story so you'll notice only if you pay close attention.

I found why this game sucks ball. https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2017/09/dishonored-death-of-the-outsider-writer-hired-for-tweets-was-gender-studies-major/39633/
GG Bethesda and Arkane Studios, going full with SJW by butchering down your games for those people.

To be fair Prey is SJW fuel as well when it comes to characters. Besides the main asian protagonist you have a black science guy, a lesbian asian woman, a russian science woman, a black security woman and one white guy who's from italy or something. About 75 of all characters in the game are woman however, and that's a big however, the game has a pretty good story, an amazing gameplay and great level design unlike this abomination so Prey although does pander is still a pretty good game.

It can be OK if done right but when you have a product that is already sloppy and you slap a PC stample on it and it gets even worse. Then we have a problem.

[Kain]

Originally posted by aykeem:

Originally posted by Zekiran:

Because apparently people complaining haven't actually paid attention to the overall story line in the whole of the series.

Actually, the reason why I don't like it is exactly because I've been paying attention. The whole setup is not consistent with what happened in the previous games. The focus was never on how bad of a god the Outsider is, but on how the people that he marks use their powers in questionable ways. It was always a discussion on agency and responsibility and corruptibility, not about placing blame.

Next, Daud is a completely different character. He jumped from accepting his actions to blaming the Outsider for everything, from banishing Billie from Dunwall to worshipping her for being his best student (even if it's been 20 years since KoD happened) and from being a badass to being a sorry old man that gets killed off screen.

Finally, the way the story elements are presented simply sucks. We know how the game ends from the first mission. Even if you haven't watched the trailers, it's right there in the title. You get to kill the Outsider, whoop-dee-doo. The thing with this kind of story telling is that you're supposed to have a twist between the moment you tell the player what needs to be done to the moment where the player actually has to do it. There should be new elements of the story brought in that change the initial picture and add an element of surprise. I don't mean little details that lore hounds will appreciate (because those are present). I mean actual plot elements. Nothing changes. You are told you have to kill the Outsider and then you go and kill the Outsider. It's absolutely anti-climatic.

Take a game like Planescape: Torment. You are told from the start of the game that you have to get your mortality back . You don't know why, you don't know how, you have no idea who the character is or what is going on, you are not invested in any way so you go along with it. But along the way you start finding out details that give you an idea of whether you're still ok with the initial mission or not and at the end you get to decide what to do. And it's actually important plot elements that you discover along the way, not stuff like how the Outsider was an angsty teen before he got knifed.

In DotO, you are invested in the characters, the story, the universe, the mission to kill the Outsider comes on top of all this knowledge that you've build in the previous games and chances are you aren't going to want to kill the Outsider. Nothing fundamental changes in your way of looking at things from start to finish and you go along with the ride because that's what the game has you do. The talk that Billie has with Daud at the end, I was almost screaming at my screen "YOU COULD'VE ASKED THOSE QUESTIONS ON THE WHALE, BILLIE, AND I WOULDN'T HAVE HAD TO MURDER HALF THE POPULATION OF KARNAKA, WHAT THE ♥♥♥♥?".

I still think it's worth it to play the game, it's just poorly written in my opinion.

Kind of unfair comparing any game on this series with Planescape Torment. That game is simply the best story driven game ever created.

[snake_angel_18]

Originally posted by Zekiran:

The upcoming novel involving Daud should likely have come out before the game - and will probably - let's hope anyway - solve this issue of why he did do that 180 on his last appearance.

A game's story telling shouldn't have to rely on a tie in novel to explain major changes in characterization. It should be in the game why Daud did the 180 from his characterization in the Dishonored 1 DLCs. The fact that its not indicates bad writing.

OP, the reason why I'm not thrilled with the story telling is that it doesn't explain the change in characterization for Daud. How he went from taking responsibility for his actions and being willing to take the consequences and not wanting those consequences to affect the Whalers in the Dishonored 1 DLCs to blaming the Outsider for everything. If something happened that made him change his mind, the game's story telling doesn't explain it.

[McDonald's]

Originally posted by snake_angel_18:

Originally posted by Zekiran:

The upcoming novel involving Daud should likely have come out before the game - and will probably - let's hope anyway - solve this issue of why he did do that 180 on his last appearance.

A game's story telling shouldn't have to rely on a tie in novel to explain major changes in characterization. It should be in the game why Daud did the 180 from his characterization in the Dishonored 1 DLCs. The fact that its not indicates bad writing.

OP, the reason why I'm not thrilled with the story telling is that it doesn't explain the change in characterization for Daud. How he went from taking responsibility for his actions and being willing to take the consequences and not wanting those consequences to affect the Whalers in the Dishonored 1 DLCs to blaming the Outsider for everything. If something happened that made him change his mind, the game's story telling doesn't explain it.

In my mind Dauds 180 change could have been caused by his time with the eyeless. And how one was squabbling for black magic power. Or the change was influenced by the outsider himself as he could have preyed on Daud in a time of weakness(outsider always seems to show up at these times of weakness to grant power) in an attempt to persuade Billie to kill the outsider. But as stated above if anything happened it was not explained at all in DotO.

I’m bored don’t take this seriously.

[Zekiran]

On one hand I agree with the idea that it should have been conveyed in the games rather than outside sources.

However: this game has always relied on other non-game sources for its background materials. The three Dishonored short flash films that came out before D1's release give a massive amount of background that I didn't know even existed, until well after I'd played D2. So their tying in outside things isn't necessarily a 'fringe' thing, it's an 'essential' thing if you want the full extent of the story.

There is clearly way more to their world than just a video game can express. Video games are, in and of themselves, masterful pieces of storytelling - but they have issues that novels or short films don't. Development can completely derail things that they 'meant' to put in (such as the Outsider's origin, which was intended to be in D1, but they couldn't find a good way to put it in and keep the game flowing), or radically change the way that the story can be told.

So I can't fault them for adding information that is "vital" to the character development, in a manner which gives far more detail and information - story telling rather than game playing. It's a multi-layered grouping of media that they have used from the start, so having it external is neither surprising to me, nor particularly a bad idea. I *want* more information, and sometimes a game simply cannot convey that accurately or even adequately.

[ausgothic]

Originally posted by Zekiran:

On one hand I agree with the idea that it should have been conveyed in the games rather than outside sources.

However: this game has always relied on other non-game sources for its background materials. The three Dishonored short flash films that came out before D1's release give a massive amount of background that I didn't know even existed, until well after I'd played D2. So their tying in outside things isn't necessarily a 'fringe' thing, it's an 'essential' thing if you want the full extent of the story.

There is clearly way more to their world than just a video game can express. Video games are, in and of themselves, masterful pieces of storytelling - but they have issues that novels or short films don't. Development can completely derail things that they 'meant' to put in (such as the Outsider's origin, which was intended to be in D1, but they couldn't find a good way to put it in and keep the game flowing), or radically change the way that the story can be told.

So I can't fault them for adding information that is "vital" to the character development, in a manner which gives far more detail and information - story telling rather than game playing. It's a multi-layered grouping of media that they have used from the start, so having it external is neither surprising to me, nor particularly a bad idea. I *want* more information, and sometimes a game simply cannot convey that accurately or even adequately.

For extra bits of world building? Certainly. I loved going on to the Dishonored wiki after I'd played the first game and the DLCs - I loved finding out bits and pieces of lore that I missed in the game, or that were provided by external sources. But for VITAL character development? I absolutely expect that to be in the game. We don't start Daud's DLCs wondering why he's after Delilah - we KNOW why he's hunting down Delilah, because the Outsider gave him her name so that Daud could embark on a redemption quest. That's vital information. These are basic narrative story elements that need to be in the game, otherwise what is the point of playing the game if we're going to get the most important information from a book? I didn't read the Harry Potter books just so I could get vital information from JKR's twitter page. I didn't watch the Star Wars movies so I could get vital information from obscure EU novels. I expect more from games that I spend money on; I expect vital information that should and CAN BE provided in the game, in the game proper. Now, you obviously have a different taste in how to play a game, which, fine you're entitled to. But I think it speaks to some serious flaws on behalf of both Harvey Smith and the writing team for this game if so many people are irritated by what they perceive to be a narrative failing.

[TheLastLion]

Originally posted by Zekiran:

On one hand I agree with the idea that it should have been conveyed in the games rather than outside sources.

However: this game has always relied on other non-game sources for its background materials. The three Dishonored short flash films that came out before D1's release give a massive amount of background that I didn't know even existed, until well after I'd played D2. So their tying in outside things isn't necessarily a 'fringe' thing, it's an 'essential' thing if you want the full extent of the story.

There is clearly way more to their world than just a video game can express. Video games are, in and of themselves, masterful pieces of storytelling - but they have issues that novels or short films don't. Development can completely derail things that they 'meant' to put in (such as the Outsider's origin, which was intended to be in D1, but they couldn't find a good way to put it in and keep the game flowing), or radically change the way that the story can be told.

So I can't fault them for adding information that is "vital" to the character development, in a manner which gives far more detail and information - story telling rather than game playing. It's a multi-layered grouping of media that they have used from the start, so having it external is neither surprising to me, nor particularly a bad idea. I *want* more information, and sometimes a game simply cannot convey that accurately or even adequately.

Complete utter rubbish. Novels are there to expand lore and already established characters by games not to explain something that should've be in the game. You're trying to excuse complete lack of character development that could've been done with couple of sentences or in game text. Look at mass effect, look at witcher both have huge amount of lore which surpass Dishonored by miles and yet they manage to explain everything trough cutscenes and ingame text in detail similar to Dishonored. Arcane already has the tools but was unable to use them in this entry.

[ausgothic]

Originally posted by DonGurke:

Originally posted by Zekiran:

On one hand I agree with the idea that it should have been conveyed in the games rather than outside sources.

However: this game has always relied on other non-game sources for its background materials. The three Dishonored short flash films that came out before D1's release give a massive amount of background that I didn't know even existed, until well after I'd played D2. So their tying in outside things isn't necessarily a 'fringe' thing, it's an 'essential' thing if you want the full extent of the story.

There is clearly way more to their world than just a video game can express. Video games are, in and of themselves, masterful pieces of storytelling - but they have issues that novels or short films don't. Development can completely derail things that they 'meant' to put in (such as the Outsider's origin, which was intended to be in D1, but they couldn't find a good way to put it in and keep the game flowing), or radically change the way that the story can be told.

So I can't fault them for adding information that is "vital" to the character development, in a manner which gives far more detail and information - story telling rather than game playing. It's a multi-layered grouping of media that they have used from the start, so having it external is neither surprising to me, nor particularly a bad idea. I *want* more information, and sometimes a game simply cannot convey that accurately or even adequately.

Complete utter rubbish. Novels are there to expand lore and already established characters by games not to explain something that should've be in the game. You're trying to excuse complete lack of character development that could've been done with couple of sentences or in game text. Look at mass effect, look at witcher both have huge amount of lore which surpass Dishonored by miles and yet they manage to explain everything trough cutscenes and ingame text in detail similar to Dishonored. Arcane already has the tools but was unable to use them in this entry.

Another example are the Dead Space and Bioshock games - much smaller maps, tight plots, and yet were both able to pack an extraordinary amount of lore into the games that didn't necessitate game players to then go off and buy supplementary material just to have explanations and reasons for motivations of main characters. A good example of extra lore for Dead Space is the history of the religion of the Markers, and the man who discovered them - a mystery that flavoured the first game and enhanced it, and something with more detail available to those who wanted to pursue it further.

If a game wants to push a certain character in a direction, then the writers have to be prepared to explain it - in game. Doesn't even have to be directly. But it needs to be there. We like the mystery of lore and interpreting our own stuff, but it can't be a blank slate. That's just lazy writing.

[Muad'Dib]

Originally posted by Insight of Olostromus:

Originally posted by DonGurke:

Compare it to D2 then you'll notice how horrible it actually is. The story is nonsensical and as Paranochat already said lacks any motivation whatsoever. The idea might've been great but it is ruined by horrible execution. The gameplay and level design suffer too but are overshadowed by the stupid story so you'll notice only if you pay close attention.

I found why this game sucks ball. https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2017/09/dishonored-death-of-the-outsider-writer-hired-for-tweets-was-gender-studies-major/39633/
GG Bethesda and Arkane Studios, going full with SJW by butchering down your games for those people.

The person you refer to was only hired to write some of the books and notes that you can find in-game. AFAIK she didn't have a huge role in the main narrative. I know people get triggered by SJW nonsense but I think you're wrong here.

[ausgothic]

Originally posted by Muad'Dib:

Originally posted by Insight of Olostromus:

I found why this game sucks ball. https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2017/09/dishonored-death-of-the-outsider-writer-hired-for-tweets-was-gender-studies-major/39633/
GG Bethesda and Arkane Studios, going full with SJW by butchering down your games for those people.

The person you refer to was only hired to write some of the books and notes that you can find in-game. AFAIK she didn't have a huge role in the main narrative. I know people get triggered by SJW nonsense but I think you're wrong here.

I followed Hazel Monforton on Tumblr for a while and her role was also to write for Daud and Billie directly. Her role might not have been the sole reason for why the game turned out the way it did, but I'm certain it had a larger part than we'd think. Aside from the fact that I think Arkane's hiring of a Big Name Fan is ethnically questionable at best (it's the equivalent of J K Rowling hiring Cassandra Clare to help her write Order of the Phoenix), Monforton just isn't a very good writer - at least, I've never thought so. YMMV.

[Kain]

The problem is how pathetic they made Daud to become, he deserved better, hell, maybe even more than Corvo, since he was moved by regret he didn't need to do anything, but he did and he earned peace.

He didn't care about the Outsider by the end of the game, he did something good and decided to retire so why the emo attitude?

To be fair, his story should have ended, but noooo, let's milk and destroy the truly genuine good character of the franchise.

I guess somehow myself and many others are to blame, we wanted Daud to be back in some form and for our sins, he did.

[ausgothic]

Originally posted by Kain:

The problem is how pathetic they made Daud to become, he deserved better, hell, maybe even more than Corvo, since he was moved by regret he didn't need to do anything, but he did and he earned peace.

He didn't care about the Outsider by the end of the game, he did something good and decided to retire so why the emo attitude?

To be fair, his story should have ended, but noooo, let's milk and destroy the truly genuine good character of the franchise.

I guess somehow myself and many others are to blame, we wanted Daud to be back in some form and for our sins, he did.

Fans: We want Daud back!
Arkane: LOL BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

Essentially... yeah, I agree. RIP Daud.

[TheLastLion]

Daud was attempting to avoid this cringefest by dying of screen in hope noone will remember him even being there. Unfortunately they brought him back at the end of the expansion to violate his characters one last time. Rest in peperoni old friend. I'll just imagine you died at the end of Brigmore Witches and regained your honour.