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Some features aren’t as deep as TG2 due to the setting, but it also has stuff that TG2 doesn’t.
You can check my Trello here[progress.atorcoppe.com] to see what’s coming in the next updates.
For example, you can start as a complete nobody that has to beg or work for others rather than being presented with your own business right from the start. I like that real rags-to-riches gameplay, rather than getting a head start like you do in TG2. I also like the freedom to do what I want, when I want, without all the arbitrary "timers" and "conditions" in TG2.
But at the same time, the game is still EA so perhaps lacks the feature set of TG2... though to an extent that will depend on what you're looking for. For example, the lack of any meaningful political system is an issue for me, given that working my way up the ranks is one of my favourite activities in TG2.
I've actually had Saelig pretty much since it's EA release, and check in every so often to see how it's going. Each time I do there are significant new features to explore so there's no question that the game is progressing well. But if I'm totally honest, my most recent check-in was enjoyable but ended up making me just want to play TG2 again instead, which is what I'm doing right now. Bugs and flaws aside, it just has more to do and keeps me more entertained than Saelig in it's current form. That said, Saelig has massive potential, an active developer, and I have little doubt that it will become a great game when it's nearer completion. I'm looking forward to it!
Saelig is more like a chill world where you do what you want. Want to just run a farm peacefully, get married and make babies, no problem. You don't lose if you do that. Want to be a ruthless tycoon and build a huge empire, that's fine. Want to have a feud, kill people you hate, burn down buildings, sure, and they will react and retaliate accordingly. But the point is, you don't HAVE to do anything.
That said, of course there's significantly less variety in content (but IMO fewer bugs even in EA, since TG2 was a mess). A big budget team can afford to do things like a huge hierarchy of political offices each with different mechanics. The Saelig equivalent is more modest than that. At least for now. Overall, though, it can hold its own and is worth checking out.
But since you mention action, what I'm wondering after playing Saelig all evening is whether the AI has access to the same tools you do? I'm in direct competition with other families right now and am dominating the market, yet nobody has taken any action against me. Is this a thing Saelig or is it only the player who can choose to burn buildings and assassinate people? The only thing the AI seems to really do which negatively impacts me as a player is buy up all the empty plots within a few days, forcing me to pay more to buy them off them. (Which is really irritating actually... where are they getting the money to do that so quickly? One of my own mine employees earning 100 per day owned FOUR plots of land by day 3!)
Also, I think you're being a little unfair when you say that big budget games can add XYZ while indy teams may have to scale things down. I mean, I don't think TG2 was "big budget" by any stretch of the imagination... that shows in the abysmal quality of the overall product. There are plenty of relatively simple AAA titles out there that are total bug-fests too, as well as low budget indy games that have managed to add a great deal of relatively bug-free complexity.
So the size, depth and quality of a game is down to the skill and commitment of the developers, not the size of the team or the budget they have. Indy teams can even have an advantage here as they don't have publishers breathing down their necks forcing a release date. Their games can be labours of love with time on their side. From what I've seen I think Saelig is on solid ground on that front. :)
For the most part they will toil away and make themselves happy. They have their own goals but they may differ from yours.
The ai don’t exist to serve the player or hinder the player. They exist to live their own lives.
The ai also don’t flood the market. They only make what is needed to gain the best profits. In most cases the player floods the market with several different products. The ai specifically try to avoid this. So on the surface the ai may seem lazy, but they’re actually do what’s best for them.
For example, I find that the bulk of my time in Saelig is spent just watching the world do it's thing with little or no interaction from me. Once per day I need to send resources to my businesses and products to market, but that's about it. I wouldn't even need to do that if I enabled the automation feature. The "noncompetitive" AI don't care that I have the same business they do even when it's next door, or that I'm reducing their profits to mere pennies thanks to my dominance. They don't even care when I burn down one of their buildings or assassinate one of their family, not because I need to but simply for something to do.
Without competition or meaningful interaction, I'm struggling to see where Saelig is heading in terms of entertainment value. The business management side is nowhere near complex enough to be the game on it's own, and getting married is about the only real interaction with the AI outside of killing them. Starting as a beggar I now have two completely self-sufficient businesses who's only expense is wages, and enough cash in the bank to set up at least two more if I want to. And that's without any conscious effort to dominate anything, since I'm not actually someone who is super competitive, nor do I even enjoy really hard games. But I do buy games to play them... not watch them.
Sorry if it sounds like I'm tearing down your game here, but I'm just giving my opinion on it. I'm sure there are other people who have spent many hours enjoying Saelig. But if someone like me, who actually enjoys fairly relaxed games, is finding it too devoid of meaningful gameplay then perhaps it's something to think about? Or not. It's your game, after all. I suppose I was hoping for a more refined and bug-free spiritual successor to The Guild series, rather than an automatic village simulator.
The ai dont like it when you own the same business as them. They don’t like it when they see you commit a crime against them or a friend. Making an enemy of the ai is when they start to do stuff to spite you. They love lighting your stuff on fire. They love becoming the town reeve and confiscating your goods.
However from my perspective it’s important to have a calm ai by default because everyone plays this game differently and wants something different out of it. If they want to live a clam life they can without the ai hating them or if they want to be nasty and have the ai treat them badly then they can do that too.
I get your point though. The problem comes from trying to make everyone happy. Some people don’t like an ai that makes their life hell, others do. Which is why I have a hardcore mode added to my list which they player can select on game start.
As a long-time player of this game, I didn't want to write here any more because usually my input mainly seemed to cause misunderstandings and rejection. So I just want to briefly say I agree with many things that @Goffik states. Imho one of the few main problems is:
The AI doesn't care about the player, it doesn't need the player at all and ignores him, it exists self-reliantly on its own. But when you play a game, mostly you want some goal to achieve and take responsibilities. You don't want to feel uncalled-for and needless from the beginning to the end.
As suggested several times in the past, in Saelig imho partially this could be simply achieved by providing an *option* to eliminate free food and shelter etc. for NPCs. So the player can take responsibilities to care for (a group of) NPCs so they won't die. Alike in Banished, which became a most popular game despite its most simple graphics ...
As stated above though. The hardcore mode will definitely add some spice to the game for people who want more of a combative experience.
This is exactly why I'm drawn to games like this and seeing you state it as a grounding principle in Saelig's design encourages me to want to continue coming back and following its development.
I get what Tivaber is saying as well, of course. If the player feels they don't have a role to play in the game world then it can all feel pointless. My hope for a game like Saelig is simply that the player and AIs be given the same set of tools with which to impact the game world, and then their motivations will determine how and to what extent they employ those tools.
It makes sense that some AIs would have different personalities and goals though, and this would really add some personality (quite literally) to the game. Imagine if the only other blacksmith in town had a "greedy" personality, so they focused more on making money at any cost than anything else - that type of thing. Something to consider, acknowledging that game development is no easy task and I appreciate wherever your vision of the game takes it!
Cheers folks. Got something brewing in my mind.
Not quite. I get what you mean and it's true that dynasty mode of TG2 is a bit closer to Saelig, but Saelig is miles ahead in that direction, IMO. I never got the kind of sense of a slow relaxing flow of life in TG2 in any mode that I do with Saelig. Even without competitors the whole balance in TG2 is still set up that everything is a rush. Saelig, the world just is and you float or swim in it, fast or slow. It's almost like the world doesn't really care about what you do at all, but it's not static, just lives its own life. Whether you like it or not, or care so little about it that you don't notice depends on the person, but to me it's definitely not like TG2 even in dynasty mode.
Sure. The point is that there are only so many hours in a day, and if you have a well-run studio of developers you can normally complete more content than a single developer can. Of course that doesn't guarantee the content will be good either in gameplay effect or for technical excellence. In fact, bigger teams tend to have those problems more than a sole craftsman. Of course, this is on average. There are outliers where a team of devs screws up a project and shoot themselves in the foot with tech or architecture choices that make each bit of new content prohibitively expensive, or a crazy-talented and dedicated single dev produces a masterpiece with tons of content in a short time.
I'm saying those are outliers and it wouldn't be fair to expect this from all single devs. Stardog is doing well and Saelig is holding its own against similar genre games produced by teams. Well done on that. I don't expect next update to suddenly have 20 new political positions each with unique gameplay. Stuff like that can take time or never happen, but the game is still good in its current form.