VHS isn't Dead By Daylight

[Michel Baie]

And maybe the game should actually reflect that to get better.
Because as it is now, VHS is a bit like "what DbD would be if it was designed by survivors mains, frustrated they can't outright kill the killer". And the elements from DbD might be part what's gimping the game, not only in terms of expectations, but maybe in what the devs can allow themselves to do.

That would mean getting back to the drawing board for devs, but they should get rid of the maximum of those. If only for, as mentionned, adjusting player's expectations : no matter how many times someone in the forums are going to say those games are different, if it look like it's the same, people will set their mind accordingly... and then will likely be disappointed.

And what part of the design am I talking about ?

Like, the health system. There's both a health bar and the three health state from DbD.
Why ? Monster's not going to do much with a downed teen, and the devs made sure a newly wounded one have as most chances as they can to escape anyway. Meanwhile, there's a health bar that can recover with snacks, but won't go to zero unless the teen is downed. Meaning you can have a teen with 1 hp, in a healthy state, that will still require two hits to die.

It would probably be better if the devs would simply commit to one system.

Another thing that's lifted straight from DbD, the terror radius. It's only hindering monster's gameplay, why is it in the game ?

Teens are played in third person, Monster is in FPS with limited FOV. Why ? It makes sense in DbD where the killer is the menace to avoid, it allows for juke, places to hide, etc.
But here we have a 4v1 where everybody's potentially armed. So is forcing those perspectives an actual design choice, or is it just there "because DbD does it" ?

The perks. DbD have 4 slots, so is VHS. Most DbD perks stay at the same power level during gameplay, so is VHS.
But, why ? Why not having something reflecting the tug of war between teens and monster, with builds and mutations and even weapons unlocking during the match in an order determined by the players ?

DbD have offerings ? VHS have prizes instead. Same difference except they're a b*tch to farm for. OK, this one is a stretch, but still, the presence of those and how they work is really ressembling DbD.


...
And then, there's the core of the gameplay, which is "DbD with guns". How are killers in DbD generally attacking ? Close combat with M1. So are Monsters in VHS. But teens can't also do that, so they're going to have reach, and slowdown. But then monster can't approach, so let's add something to neutralize the weapons. But then the teens can't attack, so let's have the neutralization skill on cooldown. But if the neutralization stays here for too long, it's boring, so it should be of a short duration. But if the duration is short, then the chases should be short too. But if the chases are short, then the monster's ability to follow on a hit should be gimped as much as possible to encourage it fleeing and hiding instead, waiting for their skill to be available again.

All of that because how killers and chases work in DbD was apparently the starting point of the design. Quite frankly, I'm pretty sure modders could've done the same in DbD, but at least there it would've been justified.

All this should be, if not scrapped, maybe at least re-thought from the start. Because there's only so much you can do for new monsters that isn't going to be a variation of a combo of "neutralization / attack / tracking" skills with that base.

...
And then there's the parts that WEREN'T lifted from DbD but which should've given some of the rest is there. Like, passive tracking abilities. Scratchmarks, and all. SInce it's a deathmatch, both parties could've have it - no way WW isn't leaving marks wherever she goes.

There's also whatever you're supposed to do with the downed teen. In DbD, you can slug them, or hook them - which ensure better and faster progression toward killer's victory, plus in the latter case survs can go for a save either before hook or after the hook.
In VHS, the only interaction Monster have with a slugged teen is "feast", which doesn't really help their victory given how slow the rage meter is building, how prone it is to go down before reaching max, and how susceptible it is to actually slow down monster's progress by downing teens in one hit while dealing normal damage, and not being able to damage them more when they're down.
But hey, having characters bleeding out on the ground is what DbD does, so it's in this game. In incomplete form.


In conclusion, I'd encourage the devs to go ham and throw away whatever's there that's like or from DbD to really make their own coherent thing. It's not like they can't : they have their own workframe, enough talent to make the assets, a reasonably good netcode, weapons ideas, cool designs, but I feel they're limiting themselves by making something that is still, overall, "like DbD but killer can die".

Anyway. Thank mods to get that to the devs - who knows, maybe that will encourage them to think outside the box they got themselves into - and to everyone else, thank you for listening to my Ted talk.

[Eto]

I Agree whole heatedly with this post. This game attracts so many comparisons to DBD that it can be hard to talk about the systems without comparing the two when it really shouldn't be the primary comparison with how different the games play. Evolve seems like a closer comparison in some ways, although the big difference is that in that the monster becomes more of a threat as the game progresses while in vhs it becomes less of one. It really does feel like many of the mechanics that DBD and VHS share work fine in DBD but end up hindering VHS. In reality though completely scrapping the framework of VHS is completely impractical, but I am looking forward to how the game changes and stands on its own as early access develops.

[Sheik Link]

You also have the game mostly being advertised through DbD streamers or "ex" Streamers. And then people complain that most of the community is composed of ex dbd players.

[bradams]

I think its a problem with mentality rather than actually being a soft DbD clone where killers seem to think the entire point was survivor mains with development skills made a game where the killer could die for the lulz.

The only reason the 2 are compared is because DbD is the asymmetrical game that caught on. Realistically, this game is a lot more like Evolve, but nobody compares it to that because it died out a long time ago, where the monster player is a player that can secure victory alone, while the teens are players who NEED the help of another teen 99% of the time. The role isn't "4 lambs to the slaughter and 1 unstoppable god" like it is in DbD.

I also think the idea that the devs need to make this game a certain amount different from DbD is a little silly too. I mean obviously, they have a lot of areas they need to improve on. So does DbD, and that game has been out for 7 years, but innovation doesn't tend to work that way. Take FPS games for example, the second one that ever came out, was basically the same as the 1st one that came out. And 3000 of them later, they are still all BASICALLY the same. More advanced and more small differences, but at the end of the day, its looking through your characters eyes shooting something with something. A player knows to expect some things to be the same, and some to be different. This game doesn't have to have the tagline of "asymmetrical game that's literally nothing like any asymmetrical game in any way than any game ever before". It does a lot of things different. Some better, some worse, but I would never consider them samey. I find teen actually enjoyable and engaging in this game, while survivor in DbD is about as fun as dunking your fun bits in a blender.

So I mean yes, there are areas that need improvement, but I think comparing it to DbD is a player problem, not a dev one. They changed plenty about the asymmetrical game formula, while keeping some stuff similar. That is how standard innovation generally works.

[Case]

Originally posted by bradams:

I think its a problem with mentality rather than actually being a soft DbD clone where killers seem to think the entire point was survivor mains with development skills made a game where the killer could die for the lulz.

The only reason the 2 are compared is because DbD is the asymmetrical game that caught on. Realistically, this game is a lot more like Evolve, but nobody compares it to that because it died out a long time ago, where the monster player is a player that can secure victory alone, while the teens are players who NEED the help of another teen 99% of the time. The role isn't "4 lambs to the slaughter and 1 unstoppable god" like it is in DbD.

I also think the idea that the devs need to make this game a certain amount different from DbD is a little silly too. I mean obviously, they have a lot of areas they need to improve on. So does DbD, and that game has been out for 7 years, but innovation doesn't tend to work that way. Take FPS games for example, the second one that ever came out, was basically the same as the 1st one that came out. And 3000 of them later, they are still all BASICALLY the same. More advanced and more small differences, but at the end of the day, its looking through your characters eyes shooting something with something. A player knows to expect some things to be the same, and some to be different. This game doesn't have to have the tagline of "asymmetrical game that's literally nothing like any asymmetrical game in any way than any game ever before". It does a lot of things different. Some better, some worse, but I would never consider them samey. I find teen actually enjoyable and engaging in this game, while survivor in DbD is about as fun as dunking your fun bits in a blender.

So I mean yes, there are areas that need improvement, but I think comparing it to DbD is a player problem, not a dev one. They changed plenty about the asymmetrical game formula, while keeping some stuff similar. That is how standard innovation generally works.

This game is like Evolve if the Monster was stuck at tier 1. This game loots hand over fist for both and kind of botched both at the new player on boarding. Then doubled down on decisions that everyone and their dog pointed out would cause problems. When Hunt Showdown is more newbie friendly than your game, you REALLY need to go back to the drawing board rather than further nerfing the grind for one side and releasing to the wild btw. At least with Hunt, you're given the time to learn environmental clues and the environment just by nature of the game.

[Goglinders]

Originally posted by Nebiros:

Originally posted by bradams:

I think its a problem with mentality rather than actually being a soft DbD clone where killers seem to think the entire point was survivor mains with development skills made a game where the killer could die for the lulz.

The only reason the 2 are compared is because DbD is the asymmetrical game that caught on. Realistically, this game is a lot more like Evolve, but nobody compares it to that because it died out a long time ago, where the monster player is a player that can secure victory alone, while the teens are players who NEED the help of another teen 99% of the time. The role isn't "4 lambs to the slaughter and 1 unstoppable god" like it is in DbD.

I also think the idea that the devs need to make this game a certain amount different from DbD is a little silly too. I mean obviously, they have a lot of areas they need to improve on. So does DbD, and that game has been out for 7 years, but innovation doesn't tend to work that way. Take FPS games for example, the second one that ever came out, was basically the same as the 1st one that came out. And 3000 of them later, they are still all BASICALLY the same. More advanced and more small differences, but at the end of the day, its looking through your characters eyes shooting something with something. A player knows to expect some things to be the same, and some to be different. This game doesn't have to have the tagline of "asymmetrical game that's literally nothing like any asymmetrical game in any way than any game ever before". It does a lot of things different. Some better, some worse, but I would never consider them samey. I find teen actually enjoyable and engaging in this game, while survivor in DbD is about as fun as dunking your fun bits in a blender.

So I mean yes, there are areas that need improvement, but I think comparing it to DbD is a player problem, not a dev one. They changed plenty about the asymmetrical game formula, while keeping some stuff similar. That is how standard innovation generally works.

This game is like Evolve if the Monster was stuck at tier 1. This game loots hand over fist for both and kind of botched both at the new player on boarding. Then doubled down on decisions that everyone and their dog pointed out would cause problems. When Hunt Showdown is more newbie friendly than your game, you REALLY need to go back to the drawing board rather than further nerfing the grind for one side and releasing to the wild btw. At least with Hunt, you're given the time to learn environmental clues and the environment just by nature of the game.

>Spawn in on hunt, hear crows to left spawn, see long ammo enjoyer with scope peak your spawn, dead.

Sorry I agree the game doesn't really explain itself well to a new player, but hunt is a ridiculous comparison. That game takes way longer to actually learn and know at all what you're doing more than DBD, Evolve, or VHS for sure. I've got hundreds of hours and a couple hundred thousand "hunt dollars" on hunt and still feel like I don't know what I'm doing half the time.

[Case]

Originally posted by Goglinders:

Originally posted by Nebiros:

This game is like Evolve if the Monster was stuck at tier 1. This game loots hand over fist for both and kind of botched both at the new player on boarding. Then doubled down on decisions that everyone and their dog pointed out would cause problems. When Hunt Showdown is more newbie friendly than your game, you REALLY need to go back to the drawing board rather than further nerfing the grind for one side and releasing to the wild btw. At least with Hunt, you're given the time to learn environmental clues and the environment just by nature of the game.

>Spawn in on hunt, hear crows to left spawn, see long ammo enjoyer with scope peak your spawn, dead.

Sorry I agree the game doesn't really explain itself well to a new player, but hunt is a ridiculous comparison. That game takes way longer to actually learn and know at all what you're doing more than DBD, Evolve, or VHS for sure. I've got hundreds of hours and a couple hundred thousand "hunt dollars" on hunt and still feel like I don't know what I'm doing half the time.

I can name maybe a handful of spawns that you can get scoped from the spawn point in. Checking the map during load shows you the roads that act as spawn points and of the spawn points that come to mind, there's only one that you can't get to some form of cover before that's an issue. There's also the fact that Hunt had a rudimentary MMR that meant you weren't running into that issue super early on outside of smurfs. I know this because I was coaching a friend just getting into the game and... well. People were about as dumb as the average forum knight. Nevermind the fact that you can solo drop with a freebie hunter and just tool around if you're inclined, no risk, potential reward and a chance to poke around/screw around.

[Scream, Queen!]

I 100% agree that this game seems to have some issues figuring out what it wants to be.

It also looks like the devs started designing a lot of the mechanics by looking at the "issues" DBD has/had but did not think it through and stopped at teens, never really thinking about it beyond the basics.

I mean, a lot of this game is "ThingXY in DBD is stupid, let's take it but make it do thingYZ instead". For example, someone obviously thought "Killers carrying survivors to the hooks is stupid, but being slugged is boring... so let's give both sides something more to do..."... so now, teens are slugged permanently and have an extremely boring minigame (I guess one could use it to learn the map layout?) to play while waiting for teammates and monsters can expose themselves and feast on a downed teen which is also boring and annoying for everyone involved.

[AguilaDeAcero]

Don't forget about the terrible mimic looking at the sky when hitting a survivor. You hit them and ROOOAR to the moon! Geez.

[Mem]

Originally posted by AguilaDeAcero:

Don't forget about the terrible mimic looking at the sky when hitting a survivor. You hit them and ROOOAR to the moon! Geez.

In DbD they don't actually look at the sky. You are slowed and wipe you're weapon, but you can move camera and look around during that time

[Michel Baie]

Originally posted by Mem:

Originally posted by AguilaDeAcero:

Don't forget about the terrible mimic looking at the sky when hitting a survivor. You hit them and ROOOAR to the moon! Geez.

In DbD they don't actually look at the sky. You are slowed and wipe you're weapon, but you can move camera and look around during that time

Yes, but you can't have that in VHS in its current state. Chases are really short in this game, so if monster could see where they went easily, the hit teen would basically have no chance to escape. And chases are kept short intentionally, because it's a design forced by the cascade of stuff of wanting an entity like DbD's killer in the game, but that you can gun down.

Originally posted by bradams:

I also think the idea that the devs need to make this game a certain amount different from DbD is a little silly too. [snip for brievety]

So I mean yes, there are areas that need improvement, but I think comparing it to DbD is a player problem, not a dev one. They changed plenty about the asymmetrical game formula, while keeping some stuff similar. That is how standard innovation generally works.

Maybe innovation work that way, but the end result have to be fully coherent.

But when designing a game, if you lift one part from something, you have to at least understand how it interacted with the other stuff in the original game. Otherwise you're not doing game design, you're just doing a patchwork.

It's not like the devs HAVE to get themselves as far as possible from DbD. Of course some stuff will likely be similar.
But some of the thing I have highlighted are stuff you find in DbD, but without rhyme or reason to be here in VHS . They're here because they took heavy inspiration of that one game, but there's not the other parts needed for them to make sense. Because DbD is designed around an invincible killer chasing survivors. If you make that guy killable, you have to change almost everything else. And really look carefully at the parts you're keeping and how well they're integrating to your new project, starting with "do they still have a reason to be here ? ".

But in VHS, some of that stuff is here, and I don't see any other explanation why than "DbD did it", or "That's what it would imply having DbD's killer vulnerable".

As a result, you have what's overall a pretty awkward and restrictive design.
Balanced ? Maybe at high level, IDK.
Fun ? Debatable.
Allowing for creativity in long term ? REALLY debatable.
Allowing good player retention ? Hardly.

And honestly I'm not sure a few tweaks in the design is going to do the trick. Which is why I'm encouraging devs to just throw some of that stuff out, at the very least what they got from DbD.

[MrTommoose]

Originally posted by alyx210:

The Op is right, DBD is successful

Vhs lost more than half it's already small playerbase in less than 1 month..

So go back to DBD then so this community is less toxic. I appreciate it.

[MrTommoose]

Originally posted by alyx210:

Originally posted by Mr Tom the Moose:

So go back to DBD then so this community is less toxic. I appreciate it.

Getting rid of the toxicity by being toxic... Well done.

you have been in numerous discussion singing high praises to DBD and telling people that this game is awful. youre literally going around contributing nothing to each discussion and instead spreading toxicity i suggest you go back to DBD with that attitude, oh but wait youre still here i wonder why... could it be that DBD has lost its edge? And is no longer fun? or maybe youre just not good at either game and so you come here to complain.

[H♡RR♡R]

dbd players that come to vhs don't like to heal and we all end up dying... i see this the most and it sux.

[Backstabba]

Originally posted by o'Horror:

dbd players that come to vhs don't like to heal and we all end up dying... i see this the most and it sux.

If this game is going to survivor people need to let go of this DbD boogieman.

DbD isn't causing this game to fail its failing on its own. The moment people accept that is the moment the game can improve and maybe even become more popular then DbD.

[Michel Baie]

Originally posted by o'Horror:

dbd players that come to vhs don't like to heal and we all end up dying... i see this the most and it sux.

Oh yeah, nobody ever heal anyone in DbD, that's a well known fact. Thankfully they also have to advertise themselves they come from that game, so you can see them coming in VHS.

/s