the final "showdown" is really messed up

[rumpelstiltskin]

it took me ages to realize that any attempt to use showdown triggers a failure cutscene, same as when you are detected. the first thing i'm told is that the blue guys are super-sensitive, so i was pulling my hair out wondering how the tf they detected that (when the real reason was just using showdown). did they see isabelle standing up for a split second to blow a dart? did they see her cat running? at the very least, there should have been a message box about that, or cooper should have been in the party, but disabled. ideally of course, i should be able to use showdown as normal (since it's the game's core feature), and the final one should only trigger if i shoot one of the blue guys.
even story-wise it doesn't make any sense. so, cooper gives frank his gun and asks frank to shoot him. why on earth would frank miss? there's no human shield this time, and even if cooper has a second hidden gun, frank's still a better shooter, as their previous encounter clearly demonstrated
fun fact: you can knock down or kill frank alone without anyone noticing, but it still triggers the failure cutscene. it's so annoying when the devs try to "spice up" final missions with amateurish scripting.

[rumpelstiltskin]

Originally posted by Rexali_:

i think that was one of the best parts of the whole game and if you finish it on your own , you would realize that it's not even hard as you tought in first place , its just simple method , two guards are in front door no one can see them , others who patroling you can distract them with hector whistle to outside , and there is one ammo for any chareecter which is enoughh to kill blue gurads . . . .

thats it just try to distract patroling guards with hector whistle . . . .

like i said the only hard part was to figure out that you can't use showdown. i was trying so many things, not realizing what's causing them to fail (but some of the time it worked - when i didn't use showdown). like the first thing is to take down 2 guards standing next to the door - or course the first idea will be to use showdown for that.

[The Tempted Man]

60 euro game, disabling the core mechanic of the game for it's last level because of..... reasons?

[DeathScream]

Originally posted by The Tempted Man:

60 euro game, disabling the core mechanic of the game for it's last level because of..... reasons?

For the glory of satan ofc ... "Core" mechanics are not disabled and since there are many ways to complete any given mission it requires you to use your brain from time to time

[Goedeke]

Originally posted by rumpelstiltskin:

like i said the only hard part was to figure out that you can't use showdown. i was trying so many things, not realizing what's causing them to fail (but some of the time it worked - when i didn't use showdown). like the first thing is to take down 2 guards standing next to the door - or course the first idea will be to use showdown for that.

In fact you have to use showdown to kill everybody at once to finish the final section. There is no other way to do it.

The thing is that cooper has his showdown move already preplanned. So, whenever you execute showdown, cooper will fire at frank and therefore trigger all the blue guards to shoot. This will of course get cooper killed, if the blue guards don't get taken care of in the same moment.

I think this ending is pretty awesome as it blends gameplay and story in one final monumentual action where you have to make use of every character and skill you have acquired over your journey through the game. It's a very satisfiying solution and a great iconic moment once you found a way to solve the situation

But to be honest, they could have telegraphed the fact that coopers action is a preplanned showdown move a bit better to avoid confusion.

Edit: Maybe something they can patch in later

[rumpelstiltskin]

Originally posted by Wigbold:

The thing is that cooper has his showdown move already preplanned. So, whenever you execute showdown, cooper will fire at frank and therefore trigger all the blue guards to shoot. This will of course get cooper killed, if the blue guards don't get taken care of in the same moment.

yes i understand that, but it was far from obvious, especially since it wasn't a normal showdown but instead a cutscene, same one as got triggered because of other failures.

[Goedeke]

Originally posted by rumpelstiltskin:

Originally posted by Wigbold:

The thing is that cooper has his showdown move already preplanned. So, whenever you execute showdown, cooper will fire at frank and therefore trigger all the blue guards to shoot. This will of course get cooper killed, if the blue guards don't get taken care of in the same moment.

yes i understand that, but it was far from obvious, especially since it wasn't a normal showdown but instead a cutscene, same one as got triggered because of other failures.

As I said, they should have make this fact a bit better to read. I have seen some other people complain they didn't immediately understood how it works. Though, apart from that, I still think it's fine to not be able to use showdown to clear the guards on the outside, but to have this tool exclusively reserved for the final moment of the scene. It fits gameplay and atmosphere wise, in my opinion.

As for the cutscene beeing the same. I think this just logical as it always the same thing that happens. A blue guard get's alerted, either because cooper shoots or because you were detected, and shoots cooper.

[rumpelstiltskin]

Originally posted by Wigbold:

As for the cutscene beeing the same. I think this just logical as it always the same thing that happens. A blue guard get's alerted, either because cooper shoots or because you were detected, and shoots cooper.

it's logical that they shoot cooper, but the way it's implemented just makes it very confusing.

[Wormerine]

I thought the sequence was brilliant. John's showdown is set up for you so if you activate showdown he will shoot. I found it to be pretty clear from a get go.

Originally posted by rumpelstiltskin:

so, cooper gives frank his gun and asks frank to shoot him. why on earth would frank miss? there's no human shield this time, and even if cooper has a second hidden gun, frank's still a better shooter, as their previous encounter clearly demonstrated

Well, it's an honorable duel. The gun he gives Frank is, I believe, the same that was used when he shot his father. It is also somewhat reminisent of classic western showdowns .

Cooper win this time faster because of weak script syndrome: "Hero confronts the villain without learning his lesson and looses. He recovers, learns his lesson and wins." See: Dark Knight Rises and such.

Cooper's original failure should come from him rejecting his friends - an unfair ambush by Frank would make more sense, and maybe help build players dislike toward Frank. As it is, there is not logical reason as to why Cooper became faster draw between getting shot and the finale. Lack of backup has little relevance in the original duel.

[Goedeke]

Originally posted by rumpelstiltskin:

Originally posted by Wigbold:

As for the cutscene beeing the same. I think this just logical as it always the same thing that happens. A blue guard get's alerted, either because cooper shoots or because you were detected, and shoots cooper.

it's logical that they shoot cooper, but the way it's implemented just makes it very confusing.

I will agree to that. They could definitely improve it. Hope, that is something they will patch in later.

[Goedeke]

Originally posted by Wormerine:

Cooper's original failure should come from him rejecting his friends - an unfair ambush by Frank would make more sense, and maybe help build players dislike toward Frank. As it is, there is not logical reason as to why Cooper became faster draw between getting shot and the finale. Lack of backup has little relevance in the original duel.

Yeah, an ambush the first time the grown up cooper meets Frank on the boat in New Orleancs would have been so much better from a storytelling standpoint. I mean, it's something pretty obvious and cliche to happen, but the whole story is pretty straight forward anyways. It would have given Frank a bit more villian vibes, which he is lacking, I think. And it would explain why cooper loses the first duel, but can win the secon[/quote]

[Goedeke]

Originally posted by Rexali_:

Originally posted by rumpelstiltskin:

like i said the only hard part was to figure out that you can't use showdown. i was trying so many things, not realizing what's causing them to fail (but some of the time it worked - when i didn't use showdown). like the first thing is to take down 2 guards standing next to the door - or course the first idea will be to use showdown for that.

people who restart the whole mission are doing wrong , there is one bullet for any charecter in the yard + isabell dart + isabel knife kill and im sure one remaining blue guard won't kiil coooper , i tried it myself and also i watched in a youtube video , one blue guard won't kill cooper but if he did just try to stay alive another blue . . . .

Thats not true. One blue guard remaining is still enough to kill cooper. It's either a bug or it might be possible on lower difficulties, but on hard, you definitely have to kill ALL the blue guards at once. You don't need Docs gas vial, though. There are ways to take out all the guards even without it. Though, I still think they should give you one vial in chest and not just ammunition.

[MasterSchaf]

My problem with the final showdown was that I've gotten used to the individual showdown executions (i.e. Num2 to trigger Doc, Num3 to trigger Hector etc.) and I used these extensively, but in this one scenario all of those buttons acted as "Execute all characters showdowns" and would result in failure. Took me a while to realize what was happening.

[rumpelstiltskin]

also related to that mission, would have been really cool for mccoy to be able to shoot several people on the same line.

[Wormerine]

Originally posted by MasterSchaf:

My problem with the final showdown was that I've gotten used to the individual showdown executions

Yeah, fair enough. This should trigger ending showdown, if it doesn't affect it.

[Wormerine]

Originally posted by rumpelstiltskin:

also related to that mission, would have been really cool for mccoy to be able to shoot several people on the same line.

Well, that's Hectors trick. McCoy's is long range.