Does this game still expect you to save scum constantly?

[Deejo Wellens]

Just wondering if the designers pulled their heads out of their nethers and implemented checkpoints or a mode with limited saves or anything that passes for actual game design instead of expecting you to whale on the quicksave key like Shadow Tactics did.

[anima132000]

Unfortunately, there aren't any checkpoints so yes you are stuck save scumming for most part unless you have a grasp of the length of the mission. The closest thing you have is the limited save function, which more or less is just your own self-imposed handicap. I suppose the expected the replay value of you aiming to replay the missions to have 8/8.

[Deejo Wellens]

Originally posted by Gaoh:

That's cute but not exactly compatible with all the absurdly absolute declarations you've made in this thread.

Strongly worded opinions are still opinions. Man up, compadre.

[Deejo Wellens]

Originally posted by Gaoh:

We get it, you hate this design with a passion, are adamantly convinced catering to your personal preference would be objectively better

I'm arguing for the addition of checkpoints or an alternate save system *in addition to* quicksaves. I know this is not the place to take away your quicksaves yet. Most people who like challenging games are accustomed to taking setbacks with a smile and don't want to have to think about saving and reloading constantly, because it feels cheap and disgusting.

Saving and reloading is, by definition, an out-of-game action. It breaks the game loop, unless they were to diegetically implement some rewind feature like the Dagger of Time or whatever (I suggested pocket watches). If saving and reloading is something the player must manage, then it should be subject to the thematic/visual design and economy of the rest of the game, else it runs contrary, is counter-immersive, is bad design.

[Zombra]

You really seem to love the sound of your own voice, and you're the one with your head up yourself if you don't believe that quicksave is not an integral and completely intended part of how this game is to be played. It would not be "progress" to remove the system or change to something else, no matter how cool that sounds to you.

You're no different from the people who demand that roguelike games should have "save whenever" systems, as if those developers simply forgot to include their pet playstyle. Those players don't understand the design of those games and you don't understand the design of this one.

[Noma]

I would hate not being able to experiment with the tools the game give me. Not being able to save whenever I want, it would be the worst way for the developers to make the players...play their game.
It's like the magic system of FF15, which was patched (a bit) because the intimidating cost of a spell would make players not using magic AT ALL. I don't really care about FF15, but what you are asking is basically on the same scale. Taking back from the player the desire to play with the game mechanics, by punishing him for doing so (not being able to save before making a risky and creative move, which is all these games are about).

[Deejo Wellens]

Originally posted by Zombra:

You're no different from the people who demand that roguelike games should have "save whenever" systems, as if those developers simply forgot to include their pet playstyle. Those players don't understand the design of those games and you don't understand the design of this one.

It's the opposite. They are arguing for the game to become more casual and I'm arguing for the game to become more hardcore, to become more meaningfully what it is (it does say "hardcore" in the Steam blurb after all).

I understand this genre perfectly well and I'm arguing for it to become more consequential and force you to consider your tactics better instead of just spazzing quicksave every time you kill a dude, negating the need to plan and exercise caution. This game is about tactics, and it shouldn't be about mindless micro-bruteforcing.

Anyway I'm having a great time with Desperados III limiting myself to 1 save per mission on Desperado mode. Almost done with the second mission. Let's see how far I can go. Maybe I can make a video series afterwards showing the game cleared with no saves so that people can see the game being played correctly.

[Zombra]

Originally posted by Deejo Wellens:

It's the opposite. They are arguing for the game to become more casual and I'm arguing for the game to become more hardcore

Missed the point. (Big surprise.) In either case, the subject fundamentally fails to understand the object and thinks that they know better how to fulfill an intention they don't comprehend in the first place.

[Deejo Wellens]

Originally posted by Zombra:

Missed the point. (Big surprise.) In either case, the subject fundamentally fails to understand the object and thinks that they know better how to fulfill an intention they don't comprehend in the first place.

Please explain to me how I'm not understanding the game that I'm having a fun time playing on the hardest difficulty setting without quicksaving like a spaz and removing all penalty for failure, tension, and tactics.

Please explain to me why a hardcore tactics game should not be hardcore.

Nobody has even forwarded a single argument as to why quicksaving is essential here other than "trial-and-error" as if that was not the case with every difficult game.

[BOT Cecil]

Dude, the game can be tweaked however you like. Don't want quicksaves? Fine, you can disable them. The game is designed in such a way that you can play through missions without a single save. Of course, you would have to be really good. Most people however don't want console style saves.

I for one absolutely hate them. Call me casual but most people playing games do it casually and Desperados is one of those games that manages to acoomodate everyone.

Hence your bashing is completely unfounded.

[Deejo Wellens]

Originally posted by Noma:

Taking back from the player the desire to play with the game mechanics, by punishing him for doing so (not being able to save before making a risky and creative move, which is all these games are about).

Risks are exciting because of the possibility of failure, which is what you remove by quickloading. In essence, you are making risks impossible, and turning the game into a tedious punching bag sandbox where you have God mode and nothing threatens you because you're always one button press away from revival. Very dull and not thematically appropriate, especially for a game about the Old West.

[Deejo Wellens]

Originally posted by Sl1ngShot:

Desperados is one of those games that manages to acoomodate everyone.

Gaming will make a great leap forward artistically once games no longer feel the necessity to accommodate everyone.

A game calling itself hardcore should be hardcore. A game with unrestricted quicksaves and quickloading is not hardcore. At the very least the game should recognize those who are not cowards and inspire the rest to better themselves instead of pandering to them. Dark Souls was revered for this, especially once everyone realized Dark Souls is not particularly hard and even cripples can beat it in all sorts of ways. It's just uncompromising, which I believe is the ideal of great art. Dark Souls does not need a cripple mode, and neither does this.

[Wyrtt]

Savescumming is not a gaming. Its just repeating same thing untill you win without changing any tactic.

[BOT Cecil]

Originally posted by Deejo Wellens:

Originally posted by Sl1ngShot:

Desperados is one of those games that manages to acoomodate everyone.

Gaming will make a great leap forward artistically once games no longer feel the necessity to accommodate everyone.

A game calling itself hardcore should be hardcore. A game with unrestricted quicksaves and quickloading is not hardcore. At the very least the game should recognize those who are not cowards and inspire the rest to better themselves instead of pandering to them. Dark Souls was revered for this, especially once everyone realized Dark Souls is not particularly hard and even cripples can beat it in all sorts of ways. It's just uncompromising, which I believe is the ideal of great art. Dark Souls does not need a cripple mode, and neither does this.

Maybe the game doesn't want to be hardcore. And why would that be a bad thing? You can make it as hardcore as you like. I don't play Dark Souls. I hate it when games force me to replay whole sections because i died just before the checkpoint.

Long story short is games don't need to be hardcore to be fun.

[Deejo Wellens]

Originally posted by Sl1ngShot:

Maybe the game doesn't want to be hardcore.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/610370/Desperados_III/

"Desperados III is a story-driven, hardcore tactical stealth game"

Let me rewrite that blurb to be more honest to their stated intention and recommended defaults for the game:

Desperados III is a story-driven quicksave simulator set in a neutered Wild West scenario. Quicksave if you want to succeed. A good quicksave can make the difference between survival and quickloading.

[Zyddie]

And we are closing this thread.

Please keep discussions civil and on point for the future.

//Zyddie