The boner for D55--why?

[GibMeABreak]

It only dawned on me recently that almost every build template out there picks up D55 (grants clicking power based on spells cast) and it led me to a question.

Why do non-clicking based builds always (it seems) pick up clicking researches?

I noticed it DOES in fact increase CPS, so more importantly this question:

Why does clicking power increase CPS when clicking isn't happening?

[Nico]

That's pretty easy to explain: When you woudl look where your cps is coming from you would have noticed that 100% of it comes from your assistants. And since each assistant generates 5% of your clicking reward each second this means that increasing your clicking reward also increases your cps.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Necrodoom:

clicking reward is 5% of your building production

assistant production is 5% of your clicking reward

Therefore everything ends up boosting assistants, resulting in them becoming 100% of total production.

Tax collection scales off total production.

So basically, no matter if you pick building production, clicking reward, assistant production, they all have the same effect.

And, yes, all production researches (EXCEPT gem production) are multipicative.

Originally posted by ivanovich1998:

No, the ratios are linear, ergo it's the same strength no matter what you pick. Example:

You have a building production of 100, 20 assistants, and the complete Resplendant treasure series. That way you get:
-100 building production.
-100*(5% building production->click reward)=5 click reward.
-5*(5% click reward->assistant prod per assistant*20 assistants)=5 assistant production.

Now you get a 100%(100% increase=2x multiplier) boost to building production. You get:
-200 building production.
-200*(5% building production->click reward)=10 click reward.(an increase of 100%)
-10*(5% click reward->assistant prod per assistant*20 assistants)=10 assistant production.(another 100% increase)

Now you get a 200%(200% boost=3x multiplier) boost to clicking reward. You get:
-200 building production(no change)
-10*3=30 click reward(200% increase)
-30*(5% click reward->assistant prod per assistant*20 assistants)=30 assistant production(still a 200% increase)

As you can see, the boosts are equal in power no matter what you pick because the conversions are linear and because in 99% of cases assistants are 100% of your production(not in this example, but you can see it in gameplay)

[GibMeABreak]

Hooooooooooooooooooooooly ♥♥♥♥, I am amazed that I somehow missed these facts while trying to read through all the ins-and-outs of what the simple hover-overs say.

Thanks to both of you, and thanks for being so thorough.

[alveolate]

well imo, the game should really be clearer about such a major mechanic. i wouldn't blame any player being unaware of how clicking production factors into cps via assistants.

what i'm confused by is why clicking production still seems so prioritised, even when it's only 5% of assistant production. doesn't that mean that no matter how high the clicking production upgrade is, it ultimately gets only 5% value? why is the math so weird on this one xD

[GibMeABreak]

Come on man.....My head already hurt.

[VampireKitten]

Originally posted by alveolate:

well imo, the game should really be clearer about such a major mechanic. i wouldn't blame any player being unaware of how clicking production factors into cps via assistants.

what i'm confused by is why clicking production still seems so prioritised, even when it's only 5% of assistant production. doesn't that mean that no matter how high the clicking production upgrade is, it ultimately gets only 5% value? why is the math so weird on this one xD

How many times do i have to explain? Snow even posted the relevant post!
It doesn't matter if it's 5% or 0.00000001% because it's MULTIPLICATIVE boosts!
A 100% increase is ALWAYS a 100% increase, doesn't matter if the original value is 100 or 5(100*2=200, 5*2=10). Only time when it would NOT be the same is if we were talking about ADDITIVE numbers. 100+10=110, which is a 10% boost, while 5+10=15, which is a 300% boost. Or in the case of the game:
100+50 building production=150(a +50 increase which could also be seen as a relative 50% increase)
100*5%(building->click)=5 original value
150*5%(building->click)=7.5(a +2.5 increase(5% of the original +50 increase) but still a relative 50% increase)

[RogueFireWolf]

Lose the aggression.

It's prioritized because even though you only receive a portion of it as Assistant production, what you're receiving is a portion of the multiplied value of all clicking production. So if you pick two click reward upgrades, 56% and 87%, the math is 1.56*1.87*0.05=.15 (rounded). If you then add on a third one, 49%, it becomes 1.56*1.87*1.49*0.05=0.22 (rounded). I'm using realistic A1 numbers here, though the same applies to A0 numbers as well.

[alveolate]

Originally posted by ivanovich1998:

How many times do i have to explain? Snow even posted the relevant post!
It doesn't matter if it's 5% or 0.00000001% because it's MULTIPLICATIVE boosts!
A 100% increase is ALWAYS a 100% increase, doesn't matter if the original value is 100 or 5(100*2=200, 5*2=10). Only time when it would NOT be the same is if we were talking about ADDITIVE numbers. 100+10=110, which is a 10% boost, while 5+10=15, which is a 300% boost. Or in the case of the game:
100+50 building production=150(a +50 increase which could also be seen as a relative 50% increase)
100*5%(building->click)=5 original value
150*5%(building->click)=7.5(a +2.5 increase(5% of the original +50 increase) but still a relative 50% increase)

have you ever stopped to think that maybe it is YOU who've never understood it?

obviously, i'm not questioning the math that says 5 + 50% = 7.5 that's idiot-proof. the fact remains that a 50% upgrade on clicking results in just a 5% overall increase vs a 50% upgrade on building production or assistant production. in other words, a 50% upgrade for building/assistant/gems/RE all seem to give a larger increase than clicking.

this is based on the supposed 5% clicking on assistants. if there is some other more specific math that i'm not aware of, then THAT'S what i'm asking about. did i miss any additional math, where clicking upgrades are somehow treated as the same worth/value/ratio as the other production upgrades?

and please, if you're sick of explaining stuff, just don't. you're not even very good at it to begin with. why bother if it makes you so annoyed? let someone else who isn't sick of it yet do the explaining. you don't have to be the hero.

Originally posted by RogueFireWolf:

It's prioritized because even though you only receive a portion of it as Assistant production, what you're receiving is a portion of the multiplied value of all clicking production. So if you pick two click reward upgrades, 56% and 87%, the math is 1.56*1.87*0.05=.15 (rounded). If you then add on a third one, 49%, it becomes 1.56*1.87*1.49*0.05=0.22 (rounded). I'm using realistic A1 numbers here, though the same applies to A0 numbers as well.

yes, but if i have to choose between a clicking upgrade and a building upgrade, because i have limited research slots for example, then shouldn't i prioritise the building upgrade because it applies to 100% of production, rather than clicking which only applies to 5%? i get that they are all multiplicative - but doesn't the clicking upgrade start at a 0.05 ratio?

here's a common example:
W150 - increase building production based on #assistants
W290 - increase unique building production based on #excav
W320 - increase clicking based on #excav
W330 - increase clicking based on #trophies

assuming they're all ~50% (post-A), wouldn't W150/W290 be more valuable than W320/W330? of course, we usually don't have many other options in W-research, but assuming i had to drop one, shouldn't i drop one of the clicking ones even if they had slightly higher values?

[Snow]

i;m not sure in 100% but what i got is this:
your income is not from buildings and clicking but from assistants.
buildings and clicking rewards increase assistants production in the same amount tus they are equal

assistant production is based on clicking reward. your clicking is worth 5% of your production
so if you have 100 production then 5% of it (clicking) is 5
if you increase building by 100%
your base is 200 (*100%) so your clicking is 10 (also 100% improvement)

so wichever you will improve your total click reward will go up by the same amount. and that amount will influence your assistants (and they are giving 100% of your total production)

[Nico]

Ok, I try to explain it. 1 assistant produces as much as 5% of your clicking reward. so for example 100 assistants will produce 500% of your clicking reward each second.

You could say this 5% is the additive base production of your assistants.

Let's say that 1 assistant produces 10 coins per second. Since it is based on clicking reward this means when the clicking reward is increased by 100% the assistant produces 20 coins per second. It's not important that an assistant only produces 5% of your clicking reward.

The only important thing is that the assistant production is directly related to your clicking rward. When you double your clicking reward you double your assistant production. When the assistant production is 100% of your total cps doubling the clicking reward means doubling the total cps. That's everything wich you must know
That everything started with the 5% is not important at that point. It's also not important that your clicking reward is only 5% of your building production. Or do you think that a building production upgrade is useless compared to clicking reward since your clicking reward is just 5% of your building production?

Thinking that building production upgrades are useful when only 0.25% of it is produced from 1 assistant but thinking that clicking reward upgrades are useless because it is only 5% of what 1 assistant is producing sounds very weird to me.

[Necrodoom]

Originally posted by alveolate:

Originally posted by ivanovich1998:

How many times do i have to explain? Snow even posted the relevant post!
It doesn't matter if it's 5% or 0.00000001% because it's MULTIPLICATIVE boosts!
A 100% increase is ALWAYS a 100% increase, doesn't matter if the original value is 100 or 5(100*2=200, 5*2=10). Only time when it would NOT be the same is if we were talking about ADDITIVE numbers. 100+10=110, which is a 10% boost, while 5+10=15, which is a 300% boost. Or in the case of the game:
100+50 building production=150(a +50 increase which could also be seen as a relative 50% increase)
100*5%(building->click)=5 original value
150*5%(building->click)=7.5(a +2.5 increase(5% of the original +50 increase) but still a relative 50% increase)

have you ever stopped to think that maybe it is YOU who've never understood it?

obviously, i'm not questioning the math that says 5 + 50% = 7.5 that's idiot-proof. the fact remains that a 50% upgrade on clicking results in just a 5% overall increase vs a 50% upgrade on building production or assistant production. in other words, a 50% upgrade for building/assistant/gems/RE all seem to give a larger increase than clicking.

this is based on the supposed 5% clicking on assistants. if there is some other more specific math that i'm not aware of, then THAT'S what i'm asking about. did i miss any additional math, where clicking upgrades are somehow treated as the same worth/value/ratio as the other production upgrades?

and please, if you're sick of explaining stuff, just don't. you're not even very good at it to begin with. why bother if it makes you so annoyed? let someone else who isn't sick of it yet do the explaining. you don't have to be the hero.

Originally posted by RogueFireWolf:

It's prioritized because even though you only receive a portion of it as Assistant production, what you're receiving is a portion of the multiplied value of all clicking production. So if you pick two click reward upgrades, 56% and 87%, the math is 1.56*1.87*0.05=.15 (rounded). If you then add on a third one, 49%, it becomes 1.56*1.87*1.49*0.05=0.22 (rounded). I'm using realistic A1 numbers here, though the same applies to A0 numbers as well.

yes, but if i have to choose between a clicking upgrade and a building upgrade, because i have limited research slots for example, then shouldn't i prioritise the building upgrade because it applies to 100% of production, rather than clicking which only applies to 5%? i get that they are all multiplicative - but doesn't the clicking upgrade start at a 0.05 ratio?

here's a common example:
W150 - increase building production based on #assistants
W290 - increase unique building production based on #excav
W320 - increase clicking based on #excav
W330 - increase clicking based on #trophies

assuming they're all ~50% (post-A), wouldn't W150/W290 be more valuable than W320/W330? of course, we usually don't have many other options in W-research, but assuming i had to drop one, shouldn't i drop one of the clicking ones even if they had slightly higher values?

If you had bothered to actually calculate the math, youd see Ivan is fully right. Theres simply no other way to say this, because you are outright ignoring how multipliers work.

[Joshua]

I hope the devs simplify this process with better info in game. Last thing I want to do is some arithmetic to play an idle game or think overly hard. Not like it matters the game is still fun if you aren't very efficient but this is too much out of game planning. Games need to have more of this in the game or display equations, upgrades corresponding to trophy/building#s & so future upgrades you know what to plan and do in game.

I've asked for a help a lot with this game and it seems like everyone has a different answer. I don't wanna get into huge convos or read wiki a bunch to figure out an idle game. The game should say way more about what is going on within it. Not just how much a single upgrade/building costs and it's immediate effect. Obviously there's a hell of a lot going on and I'm sure a lot of players aren't playing nearly as efficient as they could and they have no idea.

[VampireKitten]

There's really *not* that much going on, actually. Assistants represent 100% of your production for 99% of the game(exception being 0 gems elves) and, as i have explained multiple times, due to the building->click series of upgrades and the click->assistant prod conversion, any upgrade that boosts either all/your main production building, clicking reward or assistant production are equal in value, resulting in you only caring about which one has the biggest number, rather than what it boosts.

[Joshua]

Originally posted by ivanovich1998:

There's really *not* that much going on, actually. Assistants represent 100% of your production for 99% of the game(exception being 0 gems elves) and, as i have explained multiple times, due to the building->click series of upgrades and the click->assistant prod conversion, any upgrade that boosts either all/your main production building, clicking reward or assistant production are equal in value, resulting in you only caring about which one has the biggest number, rather than what it boosts.

Well yeah that information is in the tooltips. But you also are only told the first two tiers of building upgrades give assistants and "other unique updates later in game". Which is what I want more information about in-game, later in game. I don't want to discuss things with people or reference a table on a wiki.

Would also be nice if the game alluded to upgrades like "Automatic casting" and what is reqcuired next for a better "gem power". Also, what the other upcomming things are so I knew what to upgrade/work toward or not abicate and wait a few hours etc.. There isn't really a sense of accomplishment looking something up on a wiki. I would rather read it in-game and it feel part of the process. I guess I could read the wiki but I'm getting tired of that being a req for all games. Feels a lot better with the user flow for all info to be in-game.

[VampireKitten]

1)Assistant upgrades are marked as such. The first 2 tiers of building *upgrades* are the only ones that give assistants, every other upgrade that gives assistants is either a faction upgrade, a research, or one of the secret trophies, of which i think only 1 gives assistants.
2)Better gem power is simply based on max number of gems, thus there's no need for the game to tell you the exact number needed since you need gems to progress anyway. Automatic casting is alluded in game in the trophy sections, which has one for each autocast that very clearly tell you what you need.
3)Most upgrades are tied either to factions, reincarnations(which the game very clearly states when you get something new from reincarnating) or research, which is R16+ and 3 new game mechanics the game tells you about the moment you get to the needed reincarnation.
4)What other things do you think the game should tell you about?