[To Devs] Roll Function Feedback

[FreakeR]

Hey all. I've made it to Stage 3 so far and noticed a kerfuffle

Because there is a roll function in this game it does 2 things to my gameplay.

1. If I'm aiming diagonally downward, running forward, and decide to jump, I will roll instead.

2. https://i.imgur.com/8ORiCHj.png

In a situation like this, I was on the top platform and wanted to jump down, but instead rolled towards the left worm

If there is no dropdown function, fine, but I kinda would like a dedicated roll button so that I can keep shooting while aiming downforward and not roll unintentionally, I've really only used it during bosses so it's kinda superfluous.

Basically i would like this without having to stand up first:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArCBiFFbZrM


For context, I can do Contra 3, 4, Shattered soldier on hard without dying, so tight controls are my kinda my thing :P

All in all it's scratching my Contra itch so I'm happy to be a customer.
These are minor nitpicks that I can definitely adapt to. Thanks guys

[Red]

You saved me the trouble of creating a thread about this so to avoid spamming the board with repeated threads I'll just reply to this one instead. My background is similar to yours (Although I excel in Contra 1 the most) and my only complain about this game is the roll command and lack of dedicated roll button.

The bad news is the game was designed without the drop down ability so I don't expect them to just add it. I do believe that there's no place in the entire game where having this ability for thin platforms would actually break it in a meaningful way so it's still a viable option though.

Now, even if drop down is not added, I still believe this game desperately requires an alternative roll scheme, and I don't mean them to just add separate options like "Dedicated Roll Button" and "Disable Roll Command" but rather a global Type A/ Type B switch for a more general scheme (If possible per player). Why? Because it's obvious that the devs took some design choices that are purely affected by the roll command even existing, so even if they add a roll button we'll still struggle with some stuff.

* You cannot roll while holding the Aim button no matter what.
* You can cancel a roll with a jump, but if holding down (Which you do to initiate the roll) then you're unable to jump, hence the cancelling is very clunky to use.
* Very likely an oversight but these rules also apply to the character while riding a mech, which means you cannot aim and shoot downwards and eject yourself from the mech quickly.

With a dedicated roll button (I would bin it to LB/L1 by default I guess), these things would still prevent us from doing some maneuvers. For example, you wont be able to lie down and shoot to avoid high projectiles and quickly jump when a low one comes at you. This is VERY important for that classic Contra feel and one of the worst offender in terms of clunky controls in Blazing Chrome because instead we end up rolling TOWARDS the projectile we're trying to avoid.


A Type B scheme where the roll had its own button and the "Safeguards" were disabled would:

* Allow us to roll even while holding the aim button no matter the direction we're aiming at.
* Allow us to jump even while shooting diagonally downwards (Something it seems you'll do A LOT here). The video from the opening post shows something I want to do a lot of times in Blazing Chrome yet can't do comfortably and quickly.
* Allow us to jump even while lying down on the ground to quickly evade a low projectile.
* Allow us to instantly roll to the opposite side to the one we're facing with one less input and hence give us less clunky controls (Input goes from "Behind you -> Hold down -> Press a button usually used for jumping" to just "Behind you -> Press roll button").
* Give us faster and more comfortable access to rolling jump cancels.

No serious player would every use the current default (Type A in this hypothetical case) control ever again.

[FreakeR]

Red you put it in better words than I did for sure! :D

Originally posted by Red:

For example, you wont be able to lie down and shoot to avoid high projectiles and quickly jump when a low one comes at you.This is VERY important for that classic Contra feel and one of the worst offender in terms of clunky controls in Blazing Chrome because instead we end up rolling TOWARDS the projectile we're trying to avoid.

This, 100% this

[Red]

BTW I think the thread's title is doing a disservice to your actual point since it's more about the roll command than about whether dropping down exists or not.

[FreakeR]

Originally posted by Red:

BTW I think the thread's title is doing a disservice to your actual point since it's more about the roll command than about whether dropping down exists or not.

Adjusted title accordingly

[IURI]

Hello everyone,

Thanks for your feedback. I'm going to talk with Danilo about having a Type B Scheme for rolling.

Originally posted by Red:

* You cannot roll while holding the Aim button no matter what.

This is already fixed internally and will be available in the next patch.

Originally posted by Red:

* You can cancel a roll with a jump, but if holding down (Which you do to initiate the roll) then you're unable to jump, hence the cancelling is very clunky to use.

This is intentional. We did lots of tests on this and we decided that this was the best choice for Blazing Chrome because players would accidentally jump. You can still cancel the rolling if you press the opposite direction (For example: you can press Down+Jump to roll to the right, but if you want to cancel it, you can just press left).

Originally posted by Red:

* Very likely an oversight but these rules also apply to the character while riding a mech, which means you cannot aim and shoot downwards and eject yourself from the mech quickly.

This is also intentional. It's was to prevent players from getting out of the mech unintentionally. In Metal Slug for example, it was very common for users to sacrifice their vehicles by pushing the wrong buttons, on the other hand, in Blazing Chrome, you have to be on the ground, without shooting to get out of the Mech, and most of the time you don't want to get out of the Mech, because you would be putting your life in danger by doing so.


About pressing Down+Jump to jump down a platform, I think this is a big change and I'm not sure if it would be wise for us to change that right now because lots of players are already used to rolling in any circunstance, but never say never. I'm going to talk with Danilo about this as well to see what he thinks. No promises.

One scenario I can think of is something like this:
Type A Scheme:
Down+Jump = Roll
Button ? = Jump down Platforms

Type B Scheme:
Down+Jump = Jump down Platforms
Button ? = Roll


Sorry if I was not clear in my response XD

[Spazer]

Originally posted by psyke:

One scenario I can think of is something like this:
Type A Scheme:
Down+Jump = Roll
Button ? = Jump down Platforms

Type B Scheme:
Down+Jump = Jump down Platforms
Button ? = Roll


-> Type B would be perfect ! But giving the possibility to custom the input roll on trigger and bumpers too.

Many thanks !

[>-FISH-D]

Originally posted by psyke:

Hello everyone,

Thanks for your feedback. I'm going to talk with Danilo about having a Type B Scheme for rolling.

Originally posted by Red:

* You cannot roll while holding the Aim button no matter what.

This is already fixed internally and will be available in the next patch.

Originally posted by Red:

* You can cancel a roll with a jump, but if holding down (Which you do to initiate the roll) then you're unable to jump, hence the cancelling is very clunky to use.

This is intentional. We did lots of tests on this and we decided that this was the best choice for Blazing Chrome because players would accidentally jump. You can still cancel the rolling if you press the opposite direction (For example: you can press Down+Jump to roll to the right, but if you want to cancel it, you can just press left).

Originally posted by Red:

* Very likely an oversight but these rules also apply to the character while riding a mech, which means you cannot aim and shoot downwards and eject yourself from the mech quickly.

This is also intentional. It's was to prevent players from getting out of the mech unintentionally. In Metal Slug for example, it was very common for users to sacrifice their vehicles by pushing the wrong buttons, on the other hand, in Blazing Chrome, you have to be on the ground, without shooting to get out of the Mech, and most of the time you don't want to get out of the Mech, because you would be putting your life in danger by doing so.


About pressing Down+Jump to jump down a platform, I think this is a big change and I'm not sure if it would be wise for us to change that right now because lots of players are already used to rolling in any circunstance, but never say never. I'm going to talk with Danilo about this as well to see what he thinks. No promises.

One scenario I can think of is something like this:
Type A Scheme:
Down+Jump = Roll
Button ? = Jump down Platforms

Type B Scheme:
Down+Jump = Jump down Platforms
Button ? = Roll


Sorry if I was not clear in my response XD

Awesome! thanks for the response.

[Red]

Originally posted by psyke:

This is intentional. We did lots of tests on this and we decided that this was the best choice for Blazing Chrome because players would accidentally jump. You can still cancel the rolling if you press the opposite direction (For example: you can press Down+Jump to roll to the right, but if you want to cancel it, you can just press left).

Man, I can't believe I didn't notice that tech before. I even thought that you could cancel a roll into another roll to the opposite side but I was actually just cancelling the roll into walking back into another roll. This greatly helps with roll canceling.

I almost feel like some of these more "Advanced" tech should be told to us in the tutorial screen but maybe it's too much.

Originally posted by psyke:

This is also intentional. It's was to prevent players from getting out of the mech unintentionally. In Metal Slug for example, it was very common for users to sacrifice their vehicles by pushing the wrong buttons, on the other hand, in Blazing Chrome, you have to be on the ground, without shooting to get out of the Mech, and most of the time you don't want to get out of the Mech, because you would be putting your life in danger by doing so.

Good point, I wanted to eject from the mech during fights several times to prevent the robot from taking a hit and also dodge the bullets myself thanks to the ejection velocity but I didn't think about others who may try to dodge the bullets even inside of the mech (Which requires far more planning because they're huge) or simply tank the hits.

If a Type B control scheme happens then the ejection should also be mapped to the roll button for consistency.

Originally posted by psyke:

About pressing Down+Jump to jump down a platform, I think this is a big change and I'm not sure if it would be wise for us to change that right now because lots of players are already used to rolling in any circunstance, but never say never. I'm going to talk with Danilo about this as well to see what he thinks. No promises.

One scenario I can think of is something like this:
Type A Scheme:
Down+Jump = Roll
Button ? = Jump down Platforms

Type B Scheme:
Down+Jump = Jump down Platforms
Button ? = Roll

Dropping down is going to need some debugging but the game is short enough to see if it breaks the design of any level. I do wonder if people are going to get used to a button for dropping down though, maybe the Type A scheme should simply allow you to drop down by tapping (NOT holding) down + the aim and jump buttons at the same time to avoid having an extra button just for dropping down? I don't think there's any instance in the game where someone would accidentally press down + those two buttons together in a few frames and that command would also keep the familiarity of trying to press down + jump to go down.

The level design in general follows patterns more akin to classic contra games than Contra HC so the roll command really throws me off, especially because of how many times we have to both shoot down diagonally and jump to avoid attacks while shooting unlike in HC where that's an extremely rare case (Because the game lacks thin platforms in general).

Just remember to lift the restrictions for rolling in Type B if we ever get it, they would only get in the way and undermine the entire point of a roll button.

[sweff]

Hi...I'm seeing the Type B option but it's grey'd out. Was this ever implemented?

[sweff]

guess not.........
cool

[skizzosjt]

I too was rather fn annoyed the first handful of times I tried to jump down through a platform and inevitably rolled to my unexpected death! i say what a load of ♥♥♥♥! it's not the end of the world, but I couldn't disagree more with the devs and their stance on why roll should be jump+down. I would absolutely have thought a roll BUTTON (not like there isn't buttons available to assign such an action too!) would make more sense and jump+down be the trigger to jump down through platforms. really the fact you cannot jump down through a platform makes me scratch my head....it is a Contra staple and the confusion comes from i'ts not like this game isn't an obvious love letter to Contra fans or anything. I'm all for adding features....removing them....not so much. Adding rolling is awesome! removing jumping through platforms was a poor choice!

Originally posted by Jebedebediah:

Hi...I'm seeing the Type B option but it's grey'd out. Was this ever implemented?

good point! now this thread explains to me why this option doesn't function

Originally posted by IURI:

I'm not sure if it would be wise for us to change that right now because lots of players are already used to rolling in any circunstance,

look at it from my point of view.....how many old gamer farts have been playing Contra games for 30+ years and are used to jumping down through platforms at any circumstance? You and your team altered basic Contra style run 'n gun gameplay, and not in a good way with this change!