Nuru vs Valder MP balance

[KingOmnis AKA TurboGrandpaRacing]

As the title suggests, I would like to understand the balance logic behind these two characters. I am not suggesting that Valder is overpowered or underpowered, instead I believe he fits very nicely when compared against the other characters. The problem more stems with how much moreimpressive Nuru is when you compare them: They both are able to summon a unit as their wargroove and for both commanders the unit is able to move and act immediately. The problem is that Valder is only able to summon a 100g skeleton warrior while nuru has the whole army selection at her fingertips. It is important to note that nuru does have to pay for the unit, but this creates many wacky situations in multiplayer: An aggressive nuru can kill a few of the starting skeleton warriors and be able to summon a dragon turn 3 which can just end the game at that point with the free move, not to mention if it is summoned close to your barracks (since she was played aggressive) any AA you build will just melt before it has a chance to be used. Compared to this, the skeleton warrior falls a little flat as it wont be able to beat most units in a straight up fight, not to mention nuru could summon a skeleton warrior herself if it was acctually appropriate.

I believe these kind of interactions should happen and isn't a bad thing in itself, but the charge times for the wargrooves should reflect these kind of differences. Valder has a "very fast" charge rate on his wargroove which makes sense for its cheap use. Nuru on the other hand has a "fast" charge which in effect means she can have it charged by turn 3 or 4 while valder might get it a turn earlier. I just dont see this as balanced but I wanted to see if it was just me so feel free to add in!

and while I understand I used the dragon as the example for nuru in actuallity she can pick anything, so a trebuchet set up just in perfect range, or a ballista to shoot down that dragon you just made, anything at all, though I find the surprise dragon to be the easiest to build and most annoying to fight against.

[NemesisLeon44]

The first time I saw Valder use his ability I thought this. The lowest-level unit isn't very useful... it can capture things. Essentially all the ability is good for is a capture-rush. But there are few buildings. Maybe he should summon a mage since they're more all-purpose... and they can directly counter a dragon.

[Zanaki]

Ez balance changes for Valder would be 1 of these:

1. Let his groove stack so you can summon multiple at once (maybe max of 3 or 4?)
2. Let him summon his skeleton as a bonus action (aka, doesn't end his turn), so he can move -> attack -> summon, or summon -> move -> attack etc.
3. Let him summon better units for free, but he has to let his groove charge multiple times for better units etc, and summoning anything resets it.

[KingOmnis AKA TurboGrandpaRacing]

Originally posted by NemesisLeon:

The first time I saw Valder use his ability I thought this. The lowest-level unit isn't very useful... it can capture things. Essentially all the ability is good for is a capture-rush. But there are few buildings. Maybe he should summon a mage since they're more all-purpose... and they can directly counter a dragon.

see I get that but I don't think it quite solves the problem in that nuru is still a bit better for essentially the same brand of power. I like his power being different than many of the others for a kind of capture rush and being able to be used in multiple ways but it simply does not match up for the difference of like 1 turn charge.

Originally posted by Zanakii:

Ez balance changes for Valder would be 1 of these:

1. Let his groove stack so you can summon multiple at once (maybe max of 3 or 4?)
2. Let him summon his skeleton as a bonus action (aka, doesn't end his turn), so he can move -> attack -> summon, or summon -> move -> attack etc.
3. Let him summon better units for free, but he has to let his groove charge multiple times for better units etc, and summoning anything resets it.

these dont seem bad to me and would keep the flavor well enough. I think he is intended to be a rush type of character with an aggressive start so something that plays into that I think would be best, but again I don't think his power is undertuned by much, I think Nuru's is because its essentially the same thing but better. I think it should really be slowed down for charge speed, or limit what can be summoned from it (such as barracks only as the tower units need specific counters and can eat their own counters if they get to them first)

[A Fat, Angry Serval]

Nuru still has to pay for units, Valder gets his Dreadsword summons for free. Whether you can actually pull off the "kill starters, teleport dragon, win game" strategy depends on how much gold you actually have per turn and whether you control a tower at the start. No tower, no dragon. Of course, most of the maps that come with the game give you an absurd amount of starting resources anyway, but that's par for the course - Advance Wars did that too.

Nuru is actually pretty balanced on maps that don't give you an entire kingdom at the start.

[KingOmnis AKA TurboGrandpaRacing]

Originally posted by VestedGamr:

Nuru still has to pay for units, Valder gets his Dreadsword summons for free. Whether you can actually pull off the "kill starters, teleport dragon, win game" strategy depends on how much gold you actually have per turn and whether you control a tower at the start. No tower, no dragon. Of course, most of the maps that come with the game give you an absurd amount of starting resources anyway, but that's par for the course - Advance Wars did that too.

Nuru is actually pretty balanced on maps that don't give you an entire kingdom at the start.

I understand the lack of tower means no dragon but as I've stated in my original post that it isnt a deal breaker for her to not have dragon as there are many strats that can be used: such as treb that is already positioned outside your barracks with a free set up AND advance on your side of the map. To put it into perspective Ceasar's ability lets him regroup a max of 4 units but they have to advance themselves to actually be put to use not to mention needing a perfect placement to get maximum effect and also allows your opponent to see what youre doing and build the counter. His charges slower as well while nuru can just blast through that and just do it with whatever she'd need, and she'd do it much much quicker.

To suggest that the 100g skeleton a turn early can beat a set up knight, treb, or dragon is just silly IMO, regardless if you pay for it or not.

[Peter]

I think the solution for Valder is potentially simple, and most of these have already been said I think:
-Make summoning the skeleton a free action, so he can summon then move or move then summon, which would make it easier to churn them out if you're using him aggressively, fitting his gameplay theme well and displaying how effortless it is for him to raise the dead
-Make him summon more skeletons at once
-Give him a choice of skeletons- sword/spear/archer would be good if they were all free and ready to move immediately
-Make it charge EVEN FASTER(probably not a good idea)

Nuru probably just needs to charge slower, or perhaps be charged more for the unit? That would be interesting, if she charged fast but had to pay more in exchange for good deployment spots. You could also just make her units not ready to act ASAP.

[Senlin]

I haven't played MP yet, but in campaign Nuro's special is pretty much the best of all commanders. If you have less gold, you can get spearmen immediately on the frontline (and spearmen are powerful units, their weakest point is speed and getting them to the frontline), if you have more you can spawn treb in a place where it can immediately destroy any enemy unit.

Many specials of other commanders are in practice weaker then simply using the commander to attack and/or they require very special circumstances to be useful. With Nuro it's not the case.

[KingOmnis AKA TurboGrandpaRacing]

Originally posted by froz:

I haven't played MP yet, but in campaign Nuro's special is pretty much the best of all commanders. If you have less gold, you can get spearmen immediately on the frontline (and spearmen are powerful units, their weakest point is speed and getting them to the frontline), if you have more you can spawn treb in a place where it can immediately destroy any enemy unit.

Many specials of other commanders are in practice weaker then simply using the commander to attack and/or they require very special circumstances to be useful. With Nuro it's not the case.

This. It is an extremely adaptable, high impact skill that I can't really see as balanced. I don't think its broken but I think it needs to be pulled in just a little bit especially with its charge being "fast".

And again I've been using Valder online just because I really like the undead units and the way the commander looks and plays, and I've been doing really well with him, but it's hard to ignore how much better Nuru is with essentially the same power.

[Fzhek]

I agree that Nuru is the best commander right now. If I had to nerf her, I'd let her ability do the same but the summoned unit can't move nor attack that turn so the enemy has time to react to the summon.