Plothole

[The Fabulous Slayer]

So I just finished watching Zero Punctuation and hoooooly $hit. I never noticed this mistake.
In the beginning the council says to Fury in front of War, that he broke the seventh seal... But he didn't! He was imprisoned specifically because he rode out with the seal intact! What the actual hell?!

[Shadowspaz]

I have yet to finish the game, but I was under the impression that this took place after the events of the first game- DS1 ends with War breaking the final seal and summoning the horsemen.

[The Fabulous Slayer]

Originally posted by Shadowspaz:

I have yet to finish the game, but I was under the impression that this took place after the events of the first game- DS1 ends with War breaking the final seal and summoning the horsemen.

It takes place during his imprisonment, just like the second one.

[Demajen]

Originally posted by The Joker:

So I just finished watching Zero Punctuation and hoooooly $hit. I never noticed this mistake.
In the beginning the council says to Fury in front of War, that he broke the seventh seal... But he didn't! He was imprisoned specifically because he rode out with the seal intact! What the actual hell?!

The Council are lying... They're constantly lying throughout the games. They're corrupt as all Hell and really shouldn't be trusted. That's why they deliberately say "The traitor War", because they're trying to pin the blame onto him and turn him into a scapegoat so that eventually he'll turn around and do their dirty work for them and clean it up.

[The Fabulous Slayer]

Originally posted by Demajen:

Originally posted by The Joker:

So I just finished watching Zero Punctuation and hoooooly $hit. I never noticed this mistake.
In the beginning the council says to Fury in front of War, that he broke the seventh seal... But he didn't! He was imprisoned specifically because he rode out with the seal intact! What the actual hell?!

The Council are lying... They're constantly lying throughout the games. They're corrupt as all Hell and really shouldn't be trusted. That's why they deliberately say "The traitor War", because they're trying to pin the blame onto him and turn him into a scapegoat so that eventually he'll turn around and do their dirty work for them and clean it up.

They would lie not in front of him. Because they literally told him why he is imprisoned, and lying in front of him would screw up their plans, because they didn't want any horseman to find out about how corrupt they are.

[Shadowspaz]

Originally posted by The Joker:

Originally posted by Demajen:

The Council are lying... They're constantly lying throughout the games. They're corrupt as all Hell and really shouldn't be trusted. That's why they deliberately say "The traitor War", because they're trying to pin the blame onto him and turn him into a scapegoat so that eventually he'll turn around and do their dirty work for them and clean it up.

They would lie not in front of him. Because they literally told him why he is imprisoned, and lying in front of him would screw up their plans, because they didn't want any horseman to find out about how corrupt they are.

I dunno, that sounds plausible to me. At this point, War is already aware of their corruption. The best the Council can do is discredit him, which it sounds like they're doing.

Considering the Council is the ultimate keeper of the balance, who would the other Horsemen believe? The entity that kept peace between angels and demons for countless eons, or the accused that says this ultimate keeper of peace is lying?

[Nazemec]

Originally posted by The Joker:

Originally posted by Demajen:

The Council are lying... They're constantly lying throughout the games. They're corrupt as all Hell and really shouldn't be trusted. That's why they deliberately say "The traitor War", because they're trying to pin the blame onto him and turn him into a scapegoat so that eventually he'll turn around and do their dirty work for them and clean it up.

They would lie not in front of him. Because they literally told him why he is imprisoned, and lying in front of him would screw up their plans, because they didn't want any horseman to find out about how corrupt they are.

In the first game, the Council tells War all seals were intact when he went to Earth.
In the third game, they say in front of him to Fury that he broke the seventh seal.

Let's take a step back and try to not take everything literally for a second.

In the original plan, according to the truce, the Apocalypse will be triggered once the seventh seal is broken. By just common usage of those words, those two expressions ("triggering the Apocalypse" and "breaking seventh seal") could have been considered as equivalent for eons. Since the Apocalypse happened without breaking the seventh seal (which wasn't planned at all), this "common wording" becomes inaccurate.
Darksiders 3 takes place only a few years after the Apocalypse, roughly a decade. A decade, compared to eons. That's no time at all. You're bound to misuse common words for a while.

Furthermore, War could have been so much focused on trying to prove his innoncence he would most likely not notice such a small detail. I mean, let's be honest, he's not really depicted as the smartest one, more like a brute, and clearly had other things in mind at the time.


So overall, yes, there seems to be an inconsistency for us, omniscient creatures aware of everything that has been said who can check it again at anytime. But in the context? Come on, they're not perfect beings... :v

Just my theory on this.

[Kapteeni Moukku]

I watched the DS1 beginning again. War doesn't seem to remember anything from the time he was imprisoned by the council, he doesn't even have any idea of how long he was gone.
So the council maybe did something to him to make sure he doesn't have any memories of his time in their prison.

Council wanted to make Fury believe that War is the one who caused all the chaos so they said that he broke the seal.
If i got the timeline right War is still in prison for a long time after Fury meets him in DS3.

I don't see any noteworthy problem with this since this conversation happened during the imprisonment and he doesn't seem to have memories from that time.

This is just my opinion of course.

[darkmaiar]

The entire premise that DS1 established and DS3 continues to play up is that the Council are liars. Literally the entire series is built around the idea that the Council are intentionally setting the Horsemen up. So when they're telling Fury that War broke the Seventh Seal, they're bull ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ to her to get her to do what they want.

This shouldn't be that hard to grasp. Calling it a plothole is only demonstrating the inability to understand basic storytelling devices like character traits, plot points, and context.

[Meta-Mark]

The fact that the Council is lying, which so many people like to bring as an argument (not just here), is not valid.
You don't accuse X-person, even if falsely, for doing Y-thing, when some time ago you EXPLICITLY said, in front of X-person, that Y-thing DIDN'T happen..

In the specific case, you can't shout to Fury, with War perfectly able to hear, that War broke the Seventh Seal, only then to accuse War himself of acting illegitimately WITHOUT the Seventh Seal (or any Seal actually) being broken. It makes no sense,

They could try to fix that by explaining that the Council stripped War of his memory about that discussion like Imrileth speculated about, but it's clear (in my opinion) that it would just be a quick fix to a mistake. Sure as hell they didn't plan this during the first Darksiders development/writing.

War doesn't have "memories" of such discussion in the first DS simply because such things were not written at all, yet.


It would be similar to the old thing of Goku not using SSj3 against Majin Vegeta.

In-universe explanation: preserving Goku's time on Earth + not wanting to hurt Vegeta's pride + not wasting energy to awaken Bu (all of which make no sense if you analyse events)

True explanation: SSj3 wasn't in Toriyama's ideas at the time

[Shadowspaz]

Originally posted by Meta-Mark:

War doesn't have "memories" of such discussion in the first DS simply because such things were not written at all, yet.

Well, there's also the explicit loss of memory in DS1, when he's called to the council after 100 years, unaware of where he's been or how much time has passed.

Then in DS2, it's mentioned that War's soul is lost in the Abyss. That's much more in line with the 100-year gap in War's memory, since he's just been... Dead. His soul was essentially held captive, but this state of being just makes more sense with the lack of memory. After all, he was killed by Straga during the apocalypse.

Then DS3 shows War physically in shackles in front of the Council, able to talk, in full view of any Horsemen that pass through. So is he chained up in front of the Council, or lost in the Abyss? Does he have memory over the 100 years, or is it all missing from his mind?

There's a lot of weird retconning going on, here.

[darkmaiar]

The fact that it wasn't planned beforehand still doesn't make it a plothole. Imrileth's explanation may be a theory and the developers may never confirm or deny that it's the actual reasoning, but that still doesn't make it a plothole. If the in-universe explanation makes sense (that War has no memory of his previous encounter with the Council) then there's nothing more to be said, since, again, it's still not a plothole.

And yes. The Council absolutely can lie to one character to get them to do what they want and then not lie to another character to get them to do what they want. There is absolutely no reason why that makes no sense.

[Shifroval]

The only possible way to compile all events is something like this.
War is really killed by Straga, but since all Horsemen ultimately serve the Council and were given their powers by the Council (and that means the Council is in control of them), they took his soul back. It's really difficult to kill a Horseman or so it should seem, moreover it's said in DS2 that Makers' souls and souls of Archangels don't pass through the Kingdom of the Dead since they are far too ancient. Nephilims were created quite some time ago, it's never explicitly stated anywhere how long, but I suppose it's a usual "eons ago".
The only caveat here is that if War was taken back, his soul should already be in his body during the events of DS2, it takes place (or at least should) some time before DS1, since Uriel on Earth never talks about War, so they haven't met yet. The Earth in DS3 looks less apocalyptic, so the order is DS1 intro -> DS3 -> DS2 -> DS1.
Or it's just War's memory was manipulated, he clearly remembers that something is wrong and is trying to tell it to Fury. Also during the final fight there's no sighting of War in the Council's chamber, so he wasn't there already?

P.S Hmm, I can't quite remember where it's said in DS2 that War's soul is lost in the Abyss?

[darkmaiar]

In my eyes, the series of events goes like this:
1. DS1 Intro --> War killed by Straga

2. War "respawned" as prisoner of the Council --> Fury shows up, Council LIES to her, then she leaves (War possibly kept around to give Fury physical evidence rather than just accusing War without him being there)

3. War sent off to the Abyss as punishment (memory wiped intentionally by Council or as side effect of being in the Abyss) --> DS2 happens

4. Rest of DS1 starts with War remembering pretty much nothing about any of that stuff

At no point is there a plothole. What there is, currently, is an absence of information on the player's side. But the absence of information =/= a plothole. A plothole requires that there is some irreconcilable contradiction that requires a retcon or out-of-universe explanation to do away with. This is not the case; we just don't know all of the truth yet.

[Meta-Mark]

Originally posted by Shadowspaz:

Well, there's also the explicit loss of memory in DS1, when he's called to the council after 100 years, unaware of where he's been or how much time has passed.

Then in DS2, it's mentioned that War's soul is lost in the Abyss. That's much more in line with the 100-year gap in War's memory, since he's just been... Dead. His soul was essentially held captive, but this state of being just makes more sense with the lack of memory. After all, he was killed by Straga during the apocalypse.

Then DS3 shows War physically in shackles in front of the Council, able to talk, in full view of any Horsemen that pass through. So is he chained up in front of the Council, or lost in the Abyss? Does he have memory over the 100 years, or is it all missing from his mind?

There's a lot of weird retconning going on, here.

Pretty much that.
Unfortunately, I fear some of the devs/writers don't really care/know much about their own lore. Not enough to pay attention were it's due. Ever noticed how they unnecessarily re-used names which could have been avoided?

The Harvester. Was there REALLY such a necessity to give a huge unimportant bug mini-boss the same name of Death's primary weapon? So what then, will they introduce a dude with a big mouth and call it Chaoseater?

Salvation. Why such a lack of creativity? Salvation is already the name of the Angel firearm we could use in DS2 on Earth. Why give one of the Crossblades the same name? Thought the Angels could do better.

Also the official website talks about Balance vs Chaos, which is pretty awkward. There's supposed to be Balance between Order and Chaos. Chaos is the opposite of Order, not of Balance. It would be like saying Balance vs Demons...

In the game files the blue demons we fight as Fury are called Phantom Guard, which is the name of the demons we fought as War in the first DS. Only, their model is actually the one of Samael's Legions of DS2, big horns and upside-down wings, not the actual Phantom Guard demons of DS1 which looked different, with undeveloped wings and no horns.
This may not be as meaningful per se, since game files' names are not canon nor official, but still it might indicate something...

[Shadowspaz]

Originally posted by Shifroval:

P.S Hmm, I can't quite remember where it's said in DS2 that War's soul is lost in the Abyss?

I can't find the relevant cutscene, but this is from the wiki:

The Lord of Bones mentioned that War's agonized soul was trapped in the Abyss during Death's journey and that the Charred Council would soon be "picking it from their teeth".

I know I recall that line, but I'm just unable to find it.

However, I did discover another comment. At the start of DS2, when Death is going to confront Crowfather, it's mentioned that War is in chains, awaiting the Council's judgement. So maybe it actually does all work together. lol