Can we talk about just how terrible that Lust boss was? (Spoilers)

[ForteDS]

Consider that can of worms opened everyone! So, with six of the seven, the devs did a passible to decent job depicting the deadly sins with no suprises. You got Envy wanting everything everyone else already has, Wrath angry and lashing out at all who are around, Avarice with bags of gold strapped to him in his treasure horde, Sloth being carried around and avoiding fighting himself, and Gluttony being this truely Lovecraftian horror of mouthes and teeth with an appetite that makes Kirby seem full.

Then, you have Lust. First off, Fury makes it a point before going in to basicly give a word from the development team that Lust isn't going to be what you think right before going in. It's more like a "Lust for Power" kind of thing, or a kind of hunger in being focused on what you think you want to appreciate what you have, or be happy that you get what you actually need kind of lust. That's all well and good, and yes, that IS lust too, but there is a major problem with that. Avarice and Gluttony both explore those concepts much better before AND after Lust. The devs wanted to make a game where the players fought representations of the seven deadly sins, yet at the first opportunity of controversy they caved to pressure that was never externally put on them to begin with.

Am I saying that it would have been better to put in an oversexualized version of the boss, making lewd and disturbing remarks leading to and during the fight with possibly suggestive and disgusting attacks that would surely earn the ire of the media? Well... Yes, actually, that's exactly what I'm saying. Here is the thing: The game already has a M rating from the ESRB, and by no means did the game have to go into Hentai territory for the part. Already the game is meant for mature audiences that supposedly grew up and are well adjusted to the world. Going the route of a more sexual lust these days would create a more uncomfortable and disturbing scenario in the middle of the game, and yet it would be more artful as it better explores and, in some way, celebrates all of the darker corners of our collective humanity, rather than shying away from one of the more controvercial corners. Really, by shying away from it, I think that says that the developers weren't really committed to the concept that they had going, and they might as well not have bothered at all. Really, they shouldn't have bothered at all because I've already seen topics talking about how random the story is. War went to Earth to redeem himself of a crime he didn't commit, Death went on a quest to restore Humanity and to help redeem his brother, and Fury fights the Deadly Sins because... Eh.

Don't get me wrong, it's not like I don't understand why they did it. I know this game came out in 2018, and I know the political landscape of the day. Between the MeToo movement and what to me seems like we just got a season pass to the game that is as old as time called Gender, where in the beginning there were two genders and in the last five years we got twenty-two more out of nowhere, nobody really wants to talk about sex at all because someone somewhere will be offended, and they have a phone and your number. The absolute best thing that could happen is if some people get so mad that it makes national news that a game that depicts the seven deadly sins may have an offensive depictation of Lust. I'd like to remind everyone that the last time this happened (That I remember) was with the original Mass Effect game, and that was the stuff of legends. Yeah, that might create a tense atmosphere in the studio for about three weeks, but none of those would be outraged people currently own or will ever buy Darksiders 3 to begin with. You could have hunkered down and weathered that storm for a few weeks and just watch the sales rise, then upsell the Deathinitive and Warmastered editions as well.

Yeesh, what a ramble. Guess I'll have to chalk this one up to a missed opportunity. Thanks to everyone that actually read all of this and heard me out. I'm curious to see if I get some interesting dialogue about the topic, or if I get a bunch of people that read halfway and hate my opinion, or if I'm just ignored completely.

[Astronimo]

Lust doesn't have gender, you know that?

[ForteDS]

Originally posted by A.Jensen:

Lust doesn't have gender, you now that?

I didn't assign a gender to Lust at all in my post, you *know* that?

[Purpleetea]

Actually it wasnt so hard at all. You just have to find it the best tactics agains her ant its pretty easy. Even on Apocalyptic.

[Astronimo]

Originally posted by ForteDS:

Originally posted by A.Jensen:

Lust doesn't have gender, you now that?

I didn't assign a gender to Lust at all in my post, you *know* that?

So what is the point of this "nonpolitical" post? In brief. I read that, but there is a lot of *** in it. No offence.
BTW. The fight isn't hard at all. Just ignore Uziel.
As for his looking - Fury wants to be a warlord. Lust make his looking to suit Furies desire. It's all part of an illusion.
You saw real Envy, right?

[darkmaiar]

This is your problem: "The absolute best thing that could happen is if some people get so mad that it makes national news that a game that depicts the seven deadly sins may have an offensive depictation of Lust."

YOU want to forward an agenda/movement for political reasons. It has nothing to do with the game.

Whether the developers ever even thought about the political situation is irrelevant, since their design/characterization for Lust is unequivocally better than your limited understanding of what the sin actually encompasses. Lust should be ambiguous (especially as it's described in the game) because it has nothing to do with politics; it's about desire of/for all forms/things.

Frankly, while your rant was not entirely thoughtless, your argument is farcical and comes off as purely childish whining.

[ForteDS]

Originally posted by A.Jensen:

Originally posted by ForteDS:

I didn't assign a gender to Lust at all in my post, you *know* that?

So what is the point of this "nonpolitical" post? In brief. I read that, but there is a lot of *** in it. No offence.
BTW. The fight isn't hard at all. Just ignore Uziel.

The point of this post is that this depiction of Lust is just a sad middle ground between what Avarice and Gluttony embodied and might as well not have existed at all. Also, if you actually read my post, I didn't even mention the boss fight because like the character, it was just as empty and meaningless. Could have just had two Wraiths on screen and it would have been the same fight. What I'm saying is that Lust is a complete joke in all ways in this game.

[ForteDS]

Originally posted by darkmaiar:

This is your problem: "The absolute best thing that could happen is if some people get so mad that it makes national news that a game that depicts the seven deadly sins may have an offensive depictation of Lust."

YOU want to forward an agenda/movement for political reasons. It has nothing to do with the game.

Whether the developers ever even thought about the political situation is irrelevant, since their design/characterization for Lust is unequivocally better than your limited understanding of what the sin actually encompasses. Lust should be ambiguous (especially as it's described in the game) because it has nothing to do with politics; it's about desire of/for all forms/things.

Frankly, while your rant was not entirely thoughtless, your argument is farcical and comes off as purely childish nonsense.

My problem? Not really. Let me rephrase my point a bit. If the media picked up on the game and the words "Darksiders 3" were in the news for a day or two, then that would actually be a pretty good thing. I'm pretty sure the same people that already bought the game still would have, plus you have one or two days of free advertising that reaches a wide market, and most certainly the gamers that also pay attention to the news. Those who don't watch the news may watch Youtube influencers such as SidAlpha or Jim Sterling why would talk about the big commotion (Even if Jim didn't like the game), and you might make a good chunk of sales with people moving in to see what the commotion is, and upsell copies of Deathinitive and Warmastered to some new fans. Again, think about when Fox News picked up Mass Effect 1 for it's sex scenes. Things have arguably changed since then, but I'd have rather seen that experiment ran today.

Of course, by all means, I'm curious to hear what agenda/movement you think I have.

[Astronimo]

Ok, critic of nonsense. Make it your way. What description and look do you want from the Lust? Spill it.

[Shrinkshooter]

Originally posted by darkmaiar:

Frankly, while your rant was not entirely thoughtless, your argument is farcical and comes off as purely childish whining.

Frankly, while your vitrolic invective is entirely immature, your post comes off as "I'm an insufferable person who thinks their opinions are highly enlightened."

The point OP was making is simply that they could have made Lust actually about sexual lust, simply because there are two other sins that are already characterized as "you want something far too much." Avarice was material stuff, Gluttony is pretty obvious, yet Lust, rather than being sexual lust, was just an unspecificed, general version of that. They made Lust an umbrella version of the more specific characterizations of Avarice and Gluttony.

I'm not saying I agree with OP, I don't really particularly care, but it's a fair and reasonable point to make. OP's also implying that the devs intentionally avoided making it about sexual lust because they didn't want the usual outrage crowd to twist it into something about being sexist, evil, bigoted, etc., simply by trying to depict an emotion most humans innately feel. Maybe, maybe not, no way to really know that; I don't have an issue with Lust's current depiction, but a sexual personification would have made for better variety, for whatever that's worth.

[Astronimo]

Sex doll would be so boring.
And Fury is not a human.

[ForteDS]

Originally posted by A.Jensen:

Ok, critic of nonsense. Make it your way. What description and look do you want from the Lust? Spill it.

Oooh, that would be a fun one. As there are many different kinds of people out there with many different kinds of fetishes. Lets start with what Lust won't be. Lust... Wouldn't be humanoid. Lust... Wouldn't even be attractive. Lets go Call of Cthulu on this. I see a fleshy pustule of a monster of human flesh, kind of like a Flesh Gollum kind of thing. Bodies sewn and contorted into different positions, some identifiable as kind of sexual positions, into something that kind of sort of functions if barely, each possibly once being beautiful in it's own right only to now have it's beauty and identity stripped away to just be meat to be shaped and used, much like Lust does. Lets bring out the tentacles for movement and attacking, because why not. I'd have this blob move around on the ceiling by said tentacles, as well as whip you away by them, and you must use your new throwing scythe boomerang to cut it down and create an opening to wail on it. Though Gluttony would have his own... projectile attacks, bring out the horrible white goo that slows you down, because again why not, and that would be better than it being literally "Just a person shaped entity" as it is now. Throw in some rude and lewd remarks, and you certainly have an experience. Is it perfect? Oh lord no, but I think it would make an improvment.

Oh, and this can STILL be where Fury is confronted by the illusions of what she thinks she desires and realises it's not what she really wants. That part is perfectly fine.

[darkmaiar]

Originally posted by ForteDS:

My problem? Not really. Let me rephrase my point a bit. If the media picked up on the game and the words "Darksiders 3" were in the news for a day or two, then that would actually be a pretty good thing. I'm pretty sure the same people that already bought the game still would have, plus you have one or two days of free advertising that reaches a wide market, and most certainly the gamers that also pay attention to the news. Those who don't watch the news may watch Youtube influencers such as SidAlpha or Jim Sterling why would talk about the big commotion (Even if Jim didn't like the game), and you might make a good chunk of sales with people moving in to see what the commotion is, and upsell copies of Deathinitive and Warmastered to some new fans. Again, think about when Fox News picked up Mass Effect 1 for it's sex scenes. Things have arguably changed since then, but I'd have rather seen that experiment ran today.

Of course, by all means, I'm curious to hear what agenda/movement you think I have.

You claim that Lust is a "terrible" boss because she's not controversial enough in a social and political environment that encourages creators to be politically correct. As you've worded it, your criticism isn't about the design so much as the message that you want it to, but it doesn't, send.

I do apologize for coming at you so condescendingly before, but the basic problem I have with your argument is that you're criticizing a stylistic/artistic design decision by inserting a political motivation (that is has anything to do with how controversial or not they wanted their work to be). And I think that's a very unfair thing to do to artists/creators, especially since no one besides the developers themselves could ever provide evidence for such claims.

Originally posted by Shrinkshooter:

Frankly, while your vitrolic invective is entirely immature, your post comes off as "I'm an insufferable person who thinks their opinions are highly enlightened."

While I understand your point, you do realize that in responding to me in the same way that you're literally criticizing me for speaking in, you're kind of forcing a "pot calling the kettle black" situation here.

And the meat of the OP's post wasn't nonexistent. It was his reasoning that baffled me. And as I responded to him above, I think it does a disservice to ascribe these assumptions onto the developers to forward a claim of quality.

[F[r]iend]

I'm just glad they didn't depict lust straight as the sexual meme that naturally comes to mind thx to a lot of medias but chosed to go for the deeper meaning of lust, even more interesting to notice how subtle but real is the thin frontier of this particular iteration of lust compared to envy

[ForteDS]

Originally posted by darkmaiar:

I do apologize for coming at you so condescendingly before, but the basic problem I have with your argument is that you're criticizing a stylistic/artistic design decision by inserting a political motivation (that is has anything to do with how controversial or not they wanted their work to be). And I think that's a very unfair thing to do to artists/creators, especially since no one besides the developers themselves could ever provide evidence for such claims.

Well, if you want to talk stylistic/artistic design, what are the bosses that Lust matches up with? Envy was basicly a D&D hag, you got Avarice that is being squashed by it's hoarding backpack, Pride's whole aesthetic is being above and holier than thou, Wrath is a demonic gladiator with the skulls of his enemies in his armor, but Lust is literally just some person of ill defined gender (There is a better word for it that I want to use, but it completely escaped me) that is there. Oh, and Sloth and Gluttony could have come out of Call of Cthulu for all I know.

The point I was trying to make with that paragraph was not that there was some political hill that may or may not be worth dieing on. What I was trying to say is that if they went this route and had an oversexualized Lust of either or maybe both genders (If they wanted to keep some kind of double threat boss), there is a possibility that some news networks will pick it up and possibly try to rake them across the coals for it. Most would instantly think that is the worst thing that could happen, but from what I've observed, it's a ****storm that WILL blow over in a matter of weeks, and can be free advertising. I knew of this game because I am a fan of the previous two, but other than that I've seen no advertisments for it at all. No money has been spent advertising this product, and if a news station wants to do it for them for free by being outraged and offended that a M rated game might not be good for the kids, then let them.

[ForteDS]

Originally posted by Friend:

I'm just glad they didn't depict lust straight as the sexual meme that naturally comes to mind thx to a lot of medias but chosed to go for the deeper meaning of lust, even more interesting to notice how subtle but real is the thin frontier of this particular iteration of lust compared to envy

Well, the irony in going for that "deeper meaning" for Lust and putting it between Avarice and Gluttony, I think they rendered Lust completely meaningless. Even Fury says it after the fight. "At your core you were just an endless void that could never be filled. How disappointing". Avarice and Gluttony in a nutshell. Lust too by all means, sure, but I found it oddly appropriate that the line is busted out there and then.