So Romero Games is working on a new game…

[Izen]

They really will ditch this right? John Romero just announced they are working on a new fps on UE5…i really doubt they have the manpower to make 2 games at the same time. I think our new expansions is dead

[djconner]

Possibly wishful thinking, but I still suspect they may be in the process of turning the entire game over to Paradox. Sustaining and enhancing games past their initial development stage doesn't seem to be something a lot of developers are set up for, but it's basically Paradox's specialty, and something they seem able to do profitably.

[Dust]

Originally posted by djconner:

Possibly wishful thinking, but I still suspect they may be in the process of turning the entire game over to Paradox. Sustaining and enhancing games past their initial development stage doesn't seem to be something a lot of developers are set up for, but it's basically Paradox's specialty, and something they seem able to do profitably.

If only. The game has lots of potential that Paradox could take advantage of, and it is a refreshing alternative to their four main grand strategy games. I absolutely love the era, the aesthetic, the music and the general idea of it but it was executed super poorly and now it seems to have entered development hell.

[CingCai99]

They have announced a second DLC, and I think they will deliver it. The first has come out a year after the start of the game. So maybe the second comes in December 2022, another year later.

[Fatbill]

People seem to fail to understand that this was strictly contract work for Romero games.
PDX paid them to make it, it was not "self funded".
The game sold very poorly, and thus did not make anyone any money, so neither PDX nor Romero Games was interested in putting any more resources into its development.
Nor is it an intellectual property worth anything, to either company.

Yes, there is one more DLC coming.
Paying to produce this last DLC is cheaper than being sued in the EU for pre-selling (which they did) and not releasing it.

But make no mistake, this game is pretty much all it will ever be: no one is going to pay for the development of any further game mechanics (beyond the DLC) nor the redesign of what is already there. It is unlikely that they will even spend much time/money to fix remaining bugs.

[Kunovega]

Originally posted by Fatbill:

People seem to fail to understand that this was strictly contract work for Romero games.
PDX paid them to make it, it was not "self funded".
The game sold very poorly, and thus did not make anyone any money, so neither PDX nor Romero Games was interested in putting any more resources into its development.
Nor is it an intellectual property worth anything, to either company.

Yes, there is one more DLC coming.
Paying to produce this last DLC is cheaper than being sued in the EU for pre-selling (which they did) and not releasing it.

But make no mistake, this game is pretty much all it will ever be: no one is going to pay for the development of any further game mechanics (beyond the DLC) nor the redesign of what is already there. It is unlikely that they will even spend much time/money to fix remaining bugs.

Citation needed. For you to claim this was "just contract work" you're going to need to supply some proof of that. In all interviews, Brenda Romero has noted how she was thinking about making a mob game like this for many years before starting to work on it and she talked about it before they even had a publisher lined up.

https://venturebeat.com/2020/11/05/brenda-romero-interview-how-empire-of-sin-simulates-the-gangster-life/

She pitched it to Paradox Interactive, got approval, and built a team of a few dozen mostly Irish game developers to make a game about mobsters in Chicago.

She proposed it, that's not contract work, that's asking for financing and publisher backing in a partnership.

Contract work implies Paradox designed the core idea and just paid them to do the development side of it, which there does not appear to be any evidence of.

[Fatbill]

Originally posted by Kunovega:

Originally posted by Fatbill:

People seem to fail to understand that this was strictly contract work for Romero games.
PDX paid them to make it, it was not "self funded".
The game sold very poorly, and thus did not make anyone any money, so neither PDX nor Romero Games was interested in putting any more resources into its development.
Nor is it an intellectual property worth anything, to either company.

Yes, there is one more DLC coming.
Paying to produce this last DLC is cheaper than being sued in the EU for pre-selling (which they did) and not releasing it.

But make no mistake, this game is pretty much all it will ever be: no one is going to pay for the development of any further game mechanics (beyond the DLC) nor the redesign of what is already there. It is unlikely that they will even spend much time/money to fix remaining bugs.

Citation needed. For you to claim this was "just contract work" you're going to need to supply some proof of that. In all interviews, Brenda Romero has noted how she was thinking about making a mob game like this for many years before starting to work on it and she talked about it before they even had a publisher lined up.

https://venturebeat.com/2020/11/05/brenda-romero-interview-how-empire-of-sin-simulates-the-gangster-life/

She pitched it to Paradox Interactive, got approval, and built a team of a few dozen mostly Irish game developers to make a game about mobsters in Chicago.

She proposed it, that's not contract work, that's asking for financing and publisher backing in a partnership.

Contract work implies Paradox designed the core idea and just paid them to do the development side of it, which there does not appear to be any evidence of.

Not everything is in an online post somewhere.
I have a 3rd level contact that works for PDX, for a little longer anyway, and the stuff that person has been passing on has all been right.
They passed on the fact that PDX was reorganizing several months before it became public, and that EoS was almost completely funded by PDX, and that in the agreement that was signed, PDX was to receive the entirety of the money they put up before there was to be any split profits.
All of that, it turns out, appears to be true.
This person also announced the departure of the now former CEO of PDX before that happened, for making too many bad decisions, including the funding of EoS, which lost a ton of money.

If PDX was paying almost the whole tab, then yeah, it is essentially contract work, if Romero games had nothing to lose by EoS tanking, and nothing invested.

Now, PDX does not and has not wanted to pay any more money they won't get back, and Romero games is not interested in putting any money into a loser. This game has been selling for $5 and under as part of various bundles, and individual codes can or could be had for less than that.

That PDX is funding the last DLC, is allegedly cheaper than the legal costs of defaulting on something people already paid for.

[Kunovega]

Originally posted by Fatbill:

Originally posted by Kunovega:

Citation needed. For you to claim this was "just contract work" you're going to need to supply some proof of that. In all interviews, Brenda Romero has noted how she was thinking about making a mob game like this for many years before starting to work on it and she talked about it before they even had a publisher lined up.

https://venturebeat.com/2020/11/05/brenda-romero-interview-how-empire-of-sin-simulates-the-gangster-life/



She proposed it, that's not contract work, that's asking for financing and publisher backing in a partnership.

Contract work implies Paradox designed the core idea and just paid them to do the development side of it, which there does not appear to be any evidence of.

Not everything is in an online post somewhere.
I have a 3rd level contact that works for PDX, for a little longer anyway, and the stuff that person has been passing on has all been right.
They passed on the fact that PDX was reorganizing several months before it became public, and that EoS was almost completely funded by PDX, and that in the agreement that was signed, PDX was to receive the entirety of the money they put up before there was to be any split profits.
All of that, it turns out, appears to be true.
This person also announced the departure of the now former CEO of PDX before that happened, for making too many bad decisions, including the funding of EoS, which lost a ton of money.

If PDX was paying almost the whole tab, then yeah, it is essentially contract work, if Romero games had nothing to lose by EoS tanking, and nothing invested.

Now, PDX does not and has not wanted to pay any more money they won't get back, and Romero games is not interested in putting any money into a loser. This game has been selling for $5 and under as part of various bundles, and individual codes can or could be had for less than that.

That PDX is funding the last DLC, is allegedly cheaper than the legal costs of defaulting on something people already paid for.

So, you get to make things up and just tell everyone to believe you? Sorry, evidence exists that says otherwise. Even what you're describing isn't contract work.

[Fatbill]

Originally posted by Kunovega:

Originally posted by Fatbill:

Not everything is in an online post somewhere.
I have a 3rd level contact that works for PDX, for a little longer anyway, and the stuff that person has been passing on has all been right.
They passed on the fact that PDX was reorganizing several months before it became public, and that EoS was almost completely funded by PDX, and that in the agreement that was signed, PDX was to receive the entirety of the money they put up before there was to be any split profits.
All of that, it turns out, appears to be true.
This person also announced the departure of the now former CEO of PDX before that happened, for making too many bad decisions, including the funding of EoS, which lost a ton of money.

If PDX was paying almost the whole tab, then yeah, it is essentially contract work, if Romero games had nothing to lose by EoS tanking, and nothing invested.

Now, PDX does not and has not wanted to pay any more money they won't get back, and Romero games is not interested in putting any money into a loser. This game has been selling for $5 and under as part of various bundles, and individual codes can or could be had for less than that.

That PDX is funding the last DLC, is allegedly cheaper than the legal costs of defaulting on something people already paid for.

So, you get to make things up and just tell everyone to believe you? Sorry, evidence exists that says otherwise. Even what you're describing isn't contract work.

That same person passed information about the PDX reorg before it was announced, I posted it in this forum.
That same person passed info about a shakeup inside PDX and then the CEO resigned the next month, I posted it in this forum. This was after the sexual harassment stuff was also released about PDX.
That same person has shared info about this game, most of which I posted here, and all has been consistent with what has happened since.

Some source on the internet is not the be all and end all of information, it all comes from people.
Sometimes a disgruntled employee is the best source of inside information.

[Kunovega]

Originally posted by Fatbill:

Originally posted by Kunovega:

So, you get to make things up and just tell everyone to believe you? Sorry, evidence exists that says otherwise. Even what you're describing isn't contract work.

That same person passed information about the PDX reorg before it was announced, I posted it in this forum.
That same person passed info about a shakeup inside PDX and then the CEO resigned the next month, I posted it in this forum. This was after the sexual harassment stuff was also released about PDX.
That same person has shared info about this game, most of which I posted here, and all has been consistent with what has happened since.

Some source on the internet is not the be all and end all of information, it all comes from people.
Sometimes a disgruntled employee is the best source of inside information.

You still don't seem to understand what contract work is. That implies PDX came up with the game and just paid them to make it, which isn't what happened.

A partnership where a developer comes up with the idea to pitch to a publisher is not contract work

[Fatbill]

Originally posted by Kunovega:

Originally posted by Fatbill:

That same person passed information about the PDX reorg before it was announced, I posted it in this forum.
That same person passed info about a shakeup inside PDX and then the CEO resigned the next month, I posted it in this forum. This was after the sexual harassment stuff was also released about PDX.
That same person has shared info about this game, most of which I posted here, and all has been consistent with what has happened since.

Some source on the internet is not the be all and end all of information, it all comes from people.
Sometimes a disgruntled employee is the best source of inside information.

You still don't seem to understand what contract work is. That implies PDX came up with the game and just paid them to make it, which isn't what happened.

A partnership where a developer comes up with the idea to pitch to a publisher is not contract work

Fine.
Maybe what's-her-name Romero came up with the original idea and pitched it, but PDX paid for the entire production.
And was contractually allowed to recoup its ENTIRE investment, before Romero saw a penny of profit.
So yeah, maybe it was not 100% "contract work" since Romero Games was slated to get a piece of the profits after PDX had been paid off (which never happened), but Romero had no skin in the game either, since PDX paid for the whole thing.

It is largely semantics that you are getting hung up on and irrelevant: Romero Games was supposed to get an "interest" in revenues beyond a certain amount, but it never happened as the game sold too poorly.

So, the only money they were ever paid to make this game, and from this game, was from PDX.

So, in effect, it was no different than if PDX just wrote them a check to make the game, and that was the end of their interest, because in the end, that is what happened.

[Obiwan]

@Fatbill you are more right than you know but equally that funding included 2 expansions.

However Kunovega is correct. This is definitely not "contract work"

PDX provides autonomy enough that how things have gone down with RG makes (disappointing) sense however it is NOT the fault or onus of PDX.

What I can guarantee you is that PDX will not do a 2nd game with RG before they create another without them, that proves they can make a good game and it can do well.

What infuriates me is that if we haven't heard much from PDX it means that the 2nd DLC is either not remotely close to ready, not up to scratch, or simply non existent because PDX are not in the habit on sitting on something they can market and generate excitement for.

Look how quickly they market inhouse DLC. Stellaris, HOI4 etc. the DLC gets announced and starts getting documentation and blogs bi-weekly or better LONG before the release date is even set.

PDX are very good at what they do. What they have started to do is open up the doors to provide the support, funding, marketing and distro for companies that want to simply focus on the game creation and it is on the creator to make sure they meet expectation.

If we haven't heard much it means it's simply not ready.

I am ALWAYS gonna be the first divert upset from dev studios to publishing houses when it is the case but with regard to this situation - there are not fingers round the throats of RG, there are no demands from suits, there is no major pressure which means the procrastination, failure to deliver in time and lack of anything is entirely on RG.

It is really disappointing.

[Big Poppa]

You should ask your friend at pdx why everything they have released in the last year and a half or so has been broken garbage from this game to leviathon or below and beyond. It's a long list of half baked low quality products. PDX seems to be going downhill fast.

[Devil Daughter]

Originally posted by Big Poppa:

You should ask your friend at pdx why everything they have released in the last year and a half or so has been broken garbage from this game to leviathon or below and beyond. It's a long list of half baked low quality products. PDX seems to be going downhill fast.

And why did they ruin Prison Architect, bought the IP, took a working game and riddled it with endless bugs they never fix.

[Fatbill]

Originally posted by Devil Daughter:

Originally posted by Big Poppa:

You should ask your friend at pdx why everything they have released in the last year and a half or so has been broken garbage from this game to leviathon or below and beyond. It's a long list of half baked low quality products. PDX seems to be going downhill fast.

And why did they ruin Prison Architect, bought the IP, took a working game and riddled it with endless bugs they never fix.

That stuff and this game was a large part of why the former CEO was "fired", aka asked to resign.

The new CEO, who was an "old", semi-retired PDX employee, said in one of his first public statements that PDX would be focusing its effort on core brands and products done in-house, which is not this game, nor prison architect.

Spending money on (not good) outside products hurt their brand and bottom line.

From what this person has told me, they are basically putting all their eggs in the Victoria3 basket, to the exclusion of a lot of other things. (And that Crusader Kings 3, while solid, was not considered a huge success financially, with the rate of return on investment, and how many people own CK2 and not CK3.)

The scuttlebutt is that unless Vicky 3 hits big, there might be layoffs.

[Big Poppa]

You think the old CEO is responsible for pdx releasing leviathon in a broken state? ( lowest rated steam game ever). The person that green lighted that mess is the guy in charge now.

That lady that left is getting blamed for the sorry state pdx is releasing games in.

With 700 employees they can't afford to ruin good will with customers by shipping low rated garbage, but they did. Sounds like your friend is about to be without a job.