Should the S-Rank time be further adjusted? [FULL GAME SPOILERS]

[Baba is OMNIPOTENT]

Currently, I believe the S-Rank Time is 20 minutes by default with floors 6 and 7 both adding 5 more minutes respectively (and temple tiers 1-4 adds, 2, 4, 6, and 14 minutes respectively).

This does not account for additions such as the loop 7 warden phase, the gauntlet (specifically with Stormlord), and the loop 13 boss.

Additionally, should the different lethalities have different time limits? And on that topic, should optional encounters that add difficulty add time or not (such as micro-core or breaches) since temple does something like that?

Finally, how much should the time limits be adjusted (for example should Stormlord add an extra 30 seconds or maybe a minute)?

I would like to hear what the opinion is on this matter. Also correct me if time adjustments were already factored in for this update.

[Plumber]

i feel like the ranking system altogether is a relic of the past at best and afterthought at worst since you can spend literal minutes in extra optional challenges like Microcore or Breaches that are not actually necessary to activate for full rooms-cleared rank, and things like loop rooms exist on top of that. It would take a seriously dedicated mind to boggle something balanced out of the current ranking system with how randomized both the difficulty and length of full clears can be, and even then going for the highest possible score is frequently mutually exclusive with clearing as quickly as possible, what with excavation rooms and arcade machines...

That being said, the ranking system still works pretty well for everything pre-RotP, and pocketwatch runs remain meaningfully difficult to pull off to this day. I think by the time the ranking system starts falling apart, the player is already more than equipped to know what THEY think a good run is.

[The Trappin' Capn']

Honestly, if you're going for a Loop 13 Exalted run, you're a madman, and I respect it. I feel like the ranking system is only really there for normal difficulty, no loop runs, and the autistic geniuses that can achieve all 4 S ranks on higher loops and hard mode. I'm going for Exalted RN, and I found a good seed for it (. )_(. )

[Baba is OMNIPOTENT]

Originally posted by Plumber:

i feel like the ranking system altogether is a relic of the past at best and afterthought at worst since you can spend literal minutes in extra optional challenges like Microcore or Breaches that are not actually necessary to activate for full rooms-cleared rank, and things like loop rooms exist on top of that. It would take a seriously dedicated mind to boggle something balanced out of the current ranking system with how randomized both the difficulty and length of full clears can be, and even then going for the highest possible score is frequently mutually exclusive with clearing as quickly as possible, what with excavation rooms and arcade machines...

That being said, the ranking system still works pretty well for everything pre-RotP, and pocketwatch runs remain meaningfully difficult to pull off to this day. I think by the time the ranking system starts falling apart, the player is already more than equipped to know what THEY think a good run is.

Having a good ranking system would help to set a definitive goal above completing some of the harder difficulties. I currently think that the other 3 types of ranks are all fine as is and speed itself is all that really needs to be adjusted. I also think score can stay a seperate system since it is much more random, while speed can be more consistent judging by successful run times. I think it just needs to be adjusted, with extensions for the more significant time sinks (to balance out either the optional challenges, or random obstacles with a massive time-sink (enough that it remains consistently possible from run to run, but understandably still a massive challenge)).
There could also be a speedrun timer on the side with information about what the current S-Rank time would be.

I feel like there could also be an additional rank for getting no-hit alongside an overall S-Rank.

[Baba is OMNIPOTENT]

Originally posted by The Trappin' Capn':

Honestly, if you're going for a Loop 13 Exalted run, you're a madman, and I respect it. I feel like the ranking system is only really there for normal difficulty, no loop runs, and the autistic geniuses that can achieve all 4 S ranks on higher loops and hard mode. I'm going for Exalted RN, and I found a good seed for it (. )_(. )

Not in its current state, but if re-balanced I could see it as a possible final goal (the kind that I might never achieve but is still fun to work towards regardless).

[Copy & Cat]

Can you get S rank in time if you just leave after overlord or that tanks the rest of the other stats?

[Plumber]

you can get an S rank with an F5 clear (just leaving after beating Overlord), and that'll still count for the relevant S rank achievements. You have less time/hits to burn, but getting S ranks becomes progressively harder with deeper clears even if the game does award you extra time or hits for F6/F7/Temple since it's obviously harder content and the extra time/hits does NOT keep up with it.

Basically, it's a huge flex to involve Temple or ANYTHING involving Loop / F7 in your S ranking efforts. The achievements don't care where you do it, and the pocketwatch cutscene only needs an Exalted F6 Hard clear as D-13 without needing Temple / Loop at all

[Baba is OMNIPOTENT]

Originally posted by Copy & Cat:

Can you get S rank in time if you just leave after overlord or that tanks the rest of the other stats?

Yes, but it will be the tightest possible time limit (20 minutes). Also, the 4 Ranks are seperate to each other but combine into an overall rank, so if you get an S-Rank in speed it will not prevent you from getting an F-Rank in hits taken and vice versa. But for an overall S-Rank you need all 4 S-Ranks in one run.

[Baba is OMNIPOTENT]

Originally posted by Plumber:

you can get an S rank with an F5 clear (just leaving after beating Overlord), and that'll still count for the relevant S rank achievements. You have less time/hits to burn, but getting S ranks becomes progressively harder with deeper clears even if the game does award you extra time or hits for F6/F7/Temple since it's obviously harder content and the extra time/hits does NOT keep up with it.

Basically, it's a huge flex to involve Temple or ANYTHING involving Loop / F7 in your S ranking efforts. The achievements don't care where you do it, and the pocketwatch cutscene only needs an Exalted F6 Hard clear as D-13 without needing Temple / Loop at all

This is less about achievements and more about creating a standard for highly skilled play (so that a run could be considered mastered on S-Rank and While it would obviously still be possible to optimize runs further, it would be good to have such a standard in place (see Ultrakill and Pizza Tower P-Ranks for an example).

[Plumber]

that was in reply to Copy & Cat, not more commentary on the actual topic of the thread; sorry if that was unclear

[Baba is OMNIPOTENT]

Originally posted by Plumber:

that was in reply to Copy & Cat, not more commentary on the actual topic of the thread; sorry if that was unclear

Remember to quote the person you are responding to in your reply or it will look like you are replying to the original post.

[Plumber]

it was the immediate preceding post but yea w/e that'd definitely be airtight context instead of just "good enough" context

[Kranst]

I am all for the idea of optimizing the ranking system for more skilled play, but I would hope that it is optional. Tying achievements or game completion to that would suck... Things like that would be cool to have recorded as a saved run, but not outside of that in my opinion.

[Baba is OMNIPOTENT]

Originally posted by Kranst:

I am all for the idea of optimizing the ranking system for more skilled play, but I would hope that it is optional. Tying achievements or game completion to that would suck... Things like that would be cool to have recorded as a saved run, but not outside of that in my opinion.

I definitely don't think it should be an achievement but I think it makes sense to have a small trinket appear in the hub (similar to the watch). Many games have those kinds of extremely difficult yet extremely optional rewards like with Celeste's golden strawberries. So it would not be out of place to have something like that, but it would still be good to have mercy on the achievements (but it is ultimately up to the devs on that regard if they overhaul the ranking system).
The reason it is good to have at least something given is to make sure such an accomplishment is not immediately lost if the player forgot to save the run.

[Kranst]

Originally posted by Baba is OMNIPOTENT:

Originally posted by Kranst:

I am all for the idea of optimizing the ranking system for more skilled play, but I would hope that it is optional. Tying achievements or game completion to that would suck... Things like that would be cool to have recorded as a saved run, but not outside of that in my opinion.

I definitely don't think it should be an achievement but I think it makes sense to have a small trinket appear in the hub (similar to the watch). Many games have those kinds of extremely difficult yet extremely optional rewards like with Celeste's golden strawberries. So it would not be out of place to have something like that, but it would still be good to have mercy on the achievements (but it is ultimately up to the devs on that regard if they overhaul the ranking system).
The reason it is good to have at least something given is to make sure such an accomplishment is not immediately lost if the player forgot to save the run.

Yes! I agree. Implementing items like the pocket watch satisfies both parties. It gives those who want an additional challenge something to work towards while remaining completely optional to those who want to experience all the game has to offer.

[Baba is OMNIPOTENT]

Originally posted by Kranst:

Originally posted by Baba is OMNIPOTENT:

I definitely don't think it should be an achievement but I think it makes sense to have a small trinket appear in the hub (similar to the watch). Many games have those kinds of extremely difficult yet extremely optional rewards like with Celeste's golden strawberries. So it would not be out of place to have something like that, but it would still be good to have mercy on the achievements (but it is ultimately up to the devs on that regard if they overhaul the ranking system).
The reason it is good to have at least something given is to make sure such an accomplishment is not immediately lost if the player forgot to save the run.

Yes! I agree. Implementing items like the pocket watch satisfies both parties. It gives those who want an additional challenge something to work towards while remaining completely optional to those who want to experience all the game has to offer.

Maybe for a Loop 13 hard win (or extended to an even more difficult Loop 13 hard win with tier 4 temple) each ship type gets a unique Exalted Trinket (except maybe Null and D-13 share one which could be something like a glitched pocket watch).