Limit Special Summons, Solve Power Creep

[Sov]

Seriously, this game had the chance to ignore the years and years and years of power creep that has existed in this game. Why is Konami so greedy that they cannot be bothered to actually balance this game so that the same problems that happened to the real TCG doesn't happen here.

This is why Yu-Gi-Oh has been a laughing stock for years, the constant power creep and selling of power at the actual cost of player skill (because all you need to do to win this game is copy a deckbuild from an asian meta player on the internet).

Its really sad that Konami are like this. In my opinion, limiting special summons to 1 per turn could solve a lot of the problems that Konami implemented with the TCG and make ALL duel links decks competitive, not just the ones that spam out the most effects and monsters.

[Shark]

Originally posted by Amadeus:

Limiting special summoning will do nothing but just destroy any chance for most archetypes to even play. Half of yugioh is your starting hand and if you get unlucky you are basically screwed from the start. This can be limited though through good deck building and deciding what you need and what you don't need efficiently. The other half is during the actual duel which you play cards and be smart about plays. That is pretty much skill in yugioh and the luck aspect can be mitigated a bit but luck is unavoidable in any card game. So when it comes to skill it isn't that bad in my opinion it's more of the way konami handles the game.

The way to solve powercreep and the unbalanced state of the game would be to as follows:

1 - Better more improved banlist, the best way to do this is kinda hard to explain but I think the way the duel links banlist works and the way it works is a decent start to a more improved banlist when compared to the normal way the banlist works in normal yugioh. There are ways to fix it even more but it would take to much time to write it out right now.

2 - Instead of constantly releasing new stronger cards and leaving old cards to not even playable status they could easily just take a break from the new cards and go back and give old archetypes some new cards to help them compete, remake old cards to help them and more. This won't happen even though it would greatly help diversify the game meta and make it varied simply due to the fact that it would encourage buying singles as people would already have alot of cards of the old archetypes, and konami wants to squeeze every penny out of us so that won't happen.


As you can see this isn't happening even though it wouldn't be that hard to do it. You are going to have to accept it or just leave as greedy companies don't change.

They are releasing new stuff for old archetypes tho its just not for every archetype. For example Nordics got a link monster that helps summoning gods while offering protection.

[BG Loscar]

That does not make sense and it would cripple the Syncrho and XYZ decks.. Imagine normal summoning a monster, special summoning another, only for you to stop there because you already used your once per turn special summoning.. So, now you have to wait til your next turn to Synchro or XYZ summon? Really? We'll be stuck with old school 1monster+1equip spell, Fusion summon and Burn Decks if that ever happens which is not healthy at all for the game..
I think, the most important question of all is "What deck are you playing" that forced you to make a post like this??? What bracket are you on, Rookie or KOG or in between?? Are you new to Duel Links???

[Shark]

Originally posted by Diamond #NCLHC:

Originally posted by Shark:

Then tell me how that would make something like Mayakashi competitive? The entire point of the deck is to summon your entire extra deck in 1 turn by using synchros and Dakki. Tell me how they'd be able to do anything with a single low lvl synchro monster. Tell me how they with their weak base monsters would even live long enough to get to summon a monster from the extra deck. There is 0 way for them to balance a game with this many cards so every deck becomes a viable option. There is already alot of decks that can get you to KoG and Dlvl 20. If you want to be the best in a game then you need to use the best option theres no getting around it thats how pvp games work. And even if you limit ss to 1 theres decks like Yosenju that can spam monsters without ss, Evil Eye that doesnt need multiple ss to kick your ass, later on Monarchs that dont need multiple ss. This would by no means balance the game. It would just make most decks completely unviable if not unplayable and reduce the variety in decks you see alot. Not to mention backrow exists. Have fun being able to summon 2 monsters for them to get hit with TTH KC FG Raigeki FC or literally any disruption. But hey youre the second person to bring great ideas to the table lately Komoney should hire you too and together you could create the best and most balanced game ever

I'd happily see things like Yosenju be good rather then people spamming Blue Eyes/Red Eyes/Dark Magician and not even summoning them properly. The same boring ass archtypes over and over and over again because Konami keeps giving them support.

Welp this post said alot youre most likely someone who watched DM back then and think caveman yugioh is the way to go. Also you have yet to explain how a deck like Mayakashi would be competitive or even playable with 1 ss per turn. Please stop dodging our questions and explain. Or wait. Did you just make a random claim without even thinking what that would mean? Are you unable to explain how that would make the game healthy because you dont even friggin know it yourself?

[Obsidian Dragoon]

Originally posted by Burning Victory:

Originally posted by Zoltrixer:

It's correct that adding such a limitation (in one form or another and along with some other limitations, like limiting effects per turn) would help the game's health, but seeing how it hasn't been done yet in the TCG, I wouldn't expect it here anytime soon, either.

Lol no it won't, the game is fine as it is your definition of healthy is what is more questionable and any form of limitation just makes the game much more slow than it should

I'm guessing you couldn't handle playing Chess or Checkers. You'd want to win in 3 turns or less and whine that it was too slow because of the heavy limits that force a back and forth between players; requiring that both think several moves ahead.

The speed of the current TCG and many other games is, in its own way, unhealthy because it appeals more to the instant gratification factor rather than capturing the intensity of a solid back and forth in a duel.

Skill isn't solely measured by how well you built your deck. It should also be measured by how well you can prepare for a variety of situations with potentially limited resources (although building your deck does play into that). The power creep has offered WAY more resources lately, and thus takes out a lot of the deeper strategy and needing to think and play for several moves ahead.

The reason Chess still works as a game despite being so old is because it doesn't really introduce new rules, pieces or choices. The TCG does because, well, they need to sell cards and make a profit. That's not really an excuse for applying heavy power creep. On the other hand, you can't really keep releasing cards of the same power level forever, as each archetype will need something to help identify it beyond a name, a shared effect, and/or a shared attribute/type. At a certain point that power creep will happen, but that doesn't mean a ton needs to happen over a a year or two.

I do feel like said power creep was too fast for the game's health, especially given where it stands now since it doesn't take more than a couple turns to pull a victory. Whether or not you agree is irrelevant. I'm just making a point of how game health isn't simply subjective, and how appealing to certain factors is inherently unhealthy.

[Shark]

Originally posted by Obsidian Dragoon:

Originally posted by Burning Victory:

Lol no it won't, the game is fine as it is your definition of healthy is what is more questionable and any form of limitation just makes the game much more slow than it should

I'm guessing you couldn't handle playing Chess or Checkers. You'd want to win in 3 turns or less and whine that it was too slow because of the heavy limits that force a back and forth between players; requiring that both think several moves ahead.

The speed of the current TCG and many other games is, in its own way, unhealthy because it appeals more to the instant gratification factor rather than capturing the intensity of a solid back and forth in a duel.

Skill isn't solely measured by how well you built your deck. It should also be measured by how well you can prepare for a variety of situations with potentially limited resources (although building your deck does play into that). The power creep has offered WAY more resources lately, and thus takes out a lot of the deeper strategy and needing to think and play for several moves ahead.

The reason Chess still works as a game despite being so old is because it doesn't really introduce new rules, pieces or choices. The TCG does because, well, they need to sell cards and make a profit. That's not really an excuse for applying heavy power creep. On the other hand, you can't really keep releasing cards of the same power level forever, as each archetype will need something to help identify it beyond a name, a shared effect, and/or a shared attribute/type. At a certain point that power creep will happen, but that doesn't mean a ton needs to happen over a a year or two.

I do feel like said power creep was too fast for the game's health, especially given where it stands now since it doesn't take more than a couple turns to pull a victory. Whether or not you agree is irrelevant. I'm just making a point of how game health isn't simply subjective, and how appealing to certain factors is inherently unhealthy.

Are you seriously comparing a rng card game where RNG and deck building is a big factor to a game where everyone has the same chances like chess? If you go first get 1 backrow but manage to summon a full field opp has a CC in hand and can do the same thing you did but can actually use his monsters effects and attack. Tell me how skill plays a factor there. Im not denying that there is skill in the game making the most out of what you have and predicting opp plays but luck is a way bigger factor. You could be the most skilled player in the world but if you brick and your opp doesnt you lose. Simple as that. Dont like that duels are short? Play RB or a stall deck. Problem solved.

[Tunnel Sharks Rule!!!]

Originally posted by Obsidian Dragoon:

Originally posted by Burning Victory:

Lol no it won't, the game is fine as it is your definition of healthy is what is more questionable and any form of limitation just makes the game much more slow than it should

I'm guessing you couldn't handle playing Chess or Checkers. You'd want to win in 3 turns or less and whine that it was too slow because of the heavy limits that force a back and forth between players; requiring that both think several moves ahead.

The speed of the current TCG and many other games is, in its own way, unhealthy because it appeals more to the instant gratification factor rather than capturing the intensity of a solid back and forth in a duel.

Skill isn't solely measured by how well you built your deck. It should also be measured by how well you can prepare for a variety of situations with potentially limited resources (although building your deck does play into that). The power creep has offered WAY more resources lately, and thus takes out a lot of the deeper strategy and needing to think and play for several moves ahead.

The reason Chess still works as a game despite being so old is because it doesn't really introduce new rules, pieces or choices. The TCG does because, well, they need to sell cards and make a profit. That's not really an excuse for applying heavy power creep. On the other hand, you can't really keep releasing cards of the same power level forever, as each archetype will need something to help identify it beyond a name, a shared effect, and/or a shared attribute/type. At a certain point that power creep will happen, but that doesn't mean a ton needs to happen over a a year or two.

I do feel like said power creep was too fast for the game's health, especially given where it stands now since it doesn't take more than a couple turns to pull a victory. Whether or not you agree is irrelevant. I'm just making a point of how game health isn't simply subjective, and how appealing to certain factors is inherently unhealthy.

I don't have to bother reading this, once you compare the game to chess and checkers you clearly don't understand wtf you are talking about. This is a card game not a board game and they are not comparable in any way, maybe if this was Poker you would have a more valid argument but this is Duel Links where the format of the game is speed

Don't bother talking if you wanna try making pointless comparisons

[arandompersons]

heh, i wonder if the best solution is to just increase starting LP to 5,000. that way theres a slim chance a duel will go for 3 to 4 turns to at least 5 and beyond to make the "back-and-fourth" feel apply more heavily.

i reckon most decks could operate so well if they just had 1 more turn to play, not all summons needing to be limitted or something. besides, 5K LP isn't too much of a slow-down on the game. maybe 1 or more turns extra. thats what... maybe 60 seconds more....

i reckon LP being set to 5K is the fairest option. nothing gets harmed AND people can play much older decks since all they may need is just 1 lucky draw... 1 more draw phase...

[c Z p]

Making the game fair for once requires a great deal of card eff rearranging and rule changing.
It would mean that every card matters, for once.
Not even limiting the number of special summons would solve it, cause then indeed, Burn and Stall decks would be in great advantage.
It's a most difficult problem that Konami has never solved right imo.
Surely, abandoning your fav cards that in the anime seem decent and limiting ys in playing 30% of what's available to even stand a chance, isn't the solution.
I find the fact that even judges of ygo have become so cynical about playing only meta sad.
Since they're experts of the rules they should be able to see the various wounds in the game rules and at least criticize Konami constructively about it. Instead, they just follow blindly what a most greedy company that's out of its mind has to offer. I doubt if Konami knows what it's doing most of the times.
They're featuring Noble Knight now? kk. That's extremely op. Bad one.

[Obsidian Dragoon]

Originally posted by Shark:

Originally posted by Obsidian Dragoon:

I'm guessing you couldn't handle playing Chess or Checkers. You'd want to win in 3 turns or less and whine that it was too slow because of the heavy limits that force a back and forth between players; requiring that both think several moves ahead.

The speed of the current TCG and many other games is, in its own way, unhealthy because it appeals more to the instant gratification factor rather than capturing the intensity of a solid back and forth in a duel.

Skill isn't solely measured by how well you built your deck. It should also be measured by how well you can prepare for a variety of situations with potentially limited resources (although building your deck does play into that). The power creep has offered WAY more resources lately, and thus takes out a lot of the deeper strategy and needing to think and play for several moves ahead.

The reason Chess still works as a game despite being so old is because it doesn't really introduce new rules, pieces or choices. The TCG does because, well, they need to sell cards and make a profit. That's not really an excuse for applying heavy power creep. On the other hand, you can't really keep releasing cards of the same power level forever, as each archetype will need something to help identify it beyond a name, a shared effect, and/or a shared attribute/type. At a certain point that power creep will happen, but that doesn't mean a ton needs to happen over a a year or two.

I do feel like said power creep was too fast for the game's health, especially given where it stands now since it doesn't take more than a couple turns to pull a victory. Whether or not you agree is irrelevant. I'm just making a point of how game health isn't simply subjective, and how appealing to certain factors is inherently unhealthy.

Are you seriously comparing a rng card game where RNG and deck building is a big factor to a game where everyone has the same chances like chess? If you go first get 1 backrow but manage to summon a full field opp has a CC in hand and can do the same thing you did but can actually use his monsters effects and attack. Tell me how skill plays a factor there. Im not denying that there is skill in the game making the most out of what you have and predicting opp plays but luck is a way bigger factor. You could be the most skilled player in the world but if you brick and your opp doesnt you lose. Simple as that. Dont like that duels are short? Play RB or a stall deck. Problem solved.

Yeah, you're kinda proving my point for me. OP complained about the lack of skill and how it's better emphasized with a back and forth. You said "no, RNG instant wins are fine".

Comparing yugioh to poker, while inherently more similar than chess or checkers, is still ultimately improper since players will almost never be running the exact same deck against each other. Poker uses one deck of cards, all possibilities are known and can be acted upon. Yugioh uses two decks, both of which are comprised of different cards chosen by the players using them.

Do you find it fun when you literally can't play the game? I strongly doubt you'd say "yes". And for this particular question, it doesn't matter whether you bricked or the opponent had you locked down from turn 1. If you can legitimately say "I find it fun to not be able to play the game when playing the game", then I'd have you pegged for a masochist with no idea on what a "healthy" game state is.

Originally posted by Burning Victory:

Originally posted by Obsidian Dragoon:

I'm guessing you couldn't handle playing Chess or Checkers. You'd want to win in 3 turns or less and whine that it was too slow because of the heavy limits that force a back and forth between players; requiring that both think several moves ahead.

The speed of the current TCG and many other games is, in its own way, unhealthy because it appeals more to the instant gratification factor rather than capturing the intensity of a solid back and forth in a duel.

Skill isn't solely measured by how well you built your deck. It should also be measured by how well you can prepare for a variety of situations with potentially limited resources (although building your deck does play into that). The power creep has offered WAY more resources lately, and thus takes out a lot of the deeper strategy and needing to think and play for several moves ahead.

The reason Chess still works as a game despite being so old is because it doesn't really introduce new rules, pieces or choices. The TCG does because, well, they need to sell cards and make a profit. That's not really an excuse for applying heavy power creep. On the other hand, you can't really keep releasing cards of the same power level forever, as each archetype will need something to help identify it beyond a name, a shared effect, and/or a shared attribute/type. At a certain point that power creep will happen, but that doesn't mean a ton needs to happen over a a year or two.

I do feel like said power creep was too fast for the game's health, especially given where it stands now since it doesn't take more than a couple turns to pull a victory. Whether or not you agree is irrelevant. I'm just making a point of how game health isn't simply subjective, and how appealing to certain factors is inherently unhealthy.

I don't have to bother reading this, once you compare the game to chess and checkers you clearly don't understand wtf you are talking about. This is a card game not a board game and they are not comparable in any way, maybe if this was Poker you would have a more valid argument but this is Duel Links where the format of the game is speed

Don't bother talking if you wanna try making pointless comparisons

Even if I compared it to poker, as I explained above it still wouldn't accurately reflect the state of the TCG. I used the term "game health" for a reason. It doesn't just reflect on the balance of the game, but the longevity and how it can easily be disrupted. Pendulums were, in a large way, proof of how far the power creep is going. Konami literally had to introduce more mechanics to keep the game interesting, something that will eventually occur again when people are sick of Link monsters. The relaxation of restrictions towards extra deck monsters simply reduces the reliance on Links, yet it doesn't change how Links modified how the game is played.

[Tunnel Sharks Rule!!!]

Originally posted by Obsidian Dragoon:

Originally posted by Burning Victory:

I don't have to bother reading this, once you compare the game to chess and checkers you clearly don't understand wtf you are talking about. This is a card game not a board game and they are not comparable in any way, maybe if this was Poker you would have a more valid argument but this is Duel Links where the format of the game is speed

Don't bother talking if you wanna try making pointless comparisons

Even if I compared it to poker, as I explained above it still wouldn't accurately reflect the state of the TCG. I used the term "game health" for a reason. It doesn't just reflect on the balance of the game, but the longevity and how it can easily be disrupted. Pendulums were, in a large way, proof of how far the power creep is going. Konami literally had to introduce more mechanics to keep the game interesting, something that will eventually occur again when people are sick of Link monsters. The relaxation of restrictions towards extra deck monsters simply reduces the reliance on Links, yet it doesn't change how Links modified how the game is played.

Well then if it makes you feel any better, Pendulum's might not be introduced in this game since Pendulum Zones don't exist in Speed Duel format, then again it's KONAMI so who the hell know's. Is there gonna be power creep in this game, yes that's always gonna be inevitable whenever you add something new, this isn't even a Yugioh thing this is a game thing in general. CS GO added in the R8, that thing had the stats of an AWP the 1 shot sniper so yeah you can imagine how stupid of a power leap you just pulled when you put a revolver that costs $800 into the game with the stats of a $4750 1 shot rifle, same thing here they can all of a sudden add in a really OP deck that ultimately ruins the game or just becomes a massive meme, but luckily that wasn't really a case for this year, outside of DM first introduction they was never anything that was towards power creep, WC kinda were but they just used stall until you get a lot of spell cards and hope you don't lose the boss monster

In general, it's KONAMI they either become incompetent and get paranoid or become too reckless we end up with Despacito 2.0, but limiting special summons isn't the answer especially if it makes the game much slower than what it should go

[Soda]

Originally posted by c Z p:

I find the fact that even judges of ygo have become so cynical about playing only meta sad.
Since they're experts of the rules they should be able to see the various wounds in the game rules and at least criticize Konami constructively about it.

I take offense to this. I don't only play meta in the TCG, sure I have 3 of the meta decks, but doesn't mean I don't play rogue decks either. My top two favourite rogue decks right now are Live Twins and Dragonmaids. Also, that's not how it works... we don't have any say at Konami whatsoever, we do not work for or represent Konami. But you do realize that EVERY SINGLE ITERATION of yugioh has a meta, right? Back when the game first came out, the meta was "Play biggest beatstick, attack, repeat until you win." Meta LITERALLY MEANS "Most Efficient Tactic Available". Do you understand what that means? It means out of all the decks, these are the most efficient at winning. Konami doesn't care if your favourite anime card is Baby Dragon, that's not how any card game works.

[Zoltrixer]

Originally posted by Burning Victory:

Originally posted by Zoltrixer:

It's correct that adding such a limitation (in one form or another and along with some other limitations, like limiting effects per turn) would help the game's health, but seeing how it hasn't been done yet in the TCG, I wouldn't expect it here anytime soon, either.

Lol no it won't, the game is fine as it is your definition of healthy is what is more questionable and any form of limitation just makes the game much more slow than it should

Nonsense. You're not even trying to put forth a decent argument. It is a fact that having limited resources and options makes the game healthier as the player has to think of how to use those resources instead of just hoping to draw the winning hand once the deck has been set up and that the opponent won't draw it. Limitations would reduce the impact of luck on the game, and the side consequence of the duels taking more turns would do so, as well. Moreover, it is clear that the game taking more turns, even if it's the same length in total, feels better for the player who doesn't want to spend ten minutes doing nothing or just reacting instead of acting, and it makes the turns mechanic that the game has actually visible. Now, off to more serious posts.

Originally posted by BostonGroundz.FiFi:

That does not make sense and it would cripple the Syncrho and XYZ decks.. Imagine normal summoning a monster, special summoning another, only for you to stop there because you already used your once per turn special summoning.. So, now you have to wait til your next turn to Synchro or XYZ summon? Really? We'll be stuck with old school 1monster+1equip spell, Fusion summon and Burn Decks if that ever happens which is not healthy at all for the game..
I think, the most important question of all is "What deck are you playing" that forced you to make a post like this??? What bracket are you on, Rookie or KOG or in between?? Are you new to Duel Links???

I also do not think that there should be a hard cap on all special summoning. Things like fusion or synchro summoning should have some exceptions because doing them takes more effort and precision (though that is also kind of dropping with some of the newer cards allowing players to summon whatever they want using whatever they want). Furthermore, some decks that would otherwise be unable to function with these sort of limitations could also have a "this special summon effect does not count towards the limit", "these multiple special summons count as one towards the limit" or something similar in its card text to help them out. Obviously, some decks that would stick out as too powerful could get handled the usual way, through the ban and limitation list, or through some other creative way. In fact, the ban and limitation list in Duel Links are a great example of how adding in limitations helps the game's health, as it is clearly superior to how it's done in the TCG, allowing for more different cards to be played.

[Sov]

Originally posted by BostonGroundz.FiFi:

That does not make sense and it would cripple the Syncrho and XYZ decks.. Imagine normal summoning a monster, special summoning another, only for you to stop there because you already used your once per turn special summoning.. So, now you have to wait til your next turn to Synchro or XYZ summon? Really? We'll be stuck with old school 1monster+1equip spell, Fusion summon and Burn Decks if that ever happens which is not healthy at all for the game..
I think, the most important question of all is "What deck are you playing" that forced you to make a post like this??? What bracket are you on, Rookie or KOG or in between?? Are you new to Duel Links???

Because rank matters in a game that has unlimited special summoning and relies on luck more then skill... yeah... ok kid :)

[Soda]

Originally posted by Diamond #NCLHC:

Originally posted by BostonGroundz.FiFi:

That does not make sense and it would cripple the Syncrho and XYZ decks.. Imagine normal summoning a monster, special summoning another, only for you to stop there because you already used your once per turn special summoning.. So, now you have to wait til your next turn to Synchro or XYZ summon? Really? We'll be stuck with old school 1monster+1equip spell, Fusion summon and Burn Decks if that ever happens which is not healthy at all for the game..
I think, the most important question of all is "What deck are you playing" that forced you to make a post like this??? What bracket are you on, Rookie or KOG or in between?? Are you new to Duel Links???

Because rank matters in a game that has unlimited special summoning and relies on luck more then skill... yeah... ok kid :)

Sounds like you've never played a card game before.

[Tunnel Sharks Rule!!!]

Originally posted by Diamond #NCLHC:

Originally posted by BostonGroundz.FiFi:

That does not make sense and it would cripple the Syncrho and XYZ decks.. Imagine normal summoning a monster, special summoning another, only for you to stop there because you already used your once per turn special summoning.. So, now you have to wait til your next turn to Synchro or XYZ summon? Really? We'll be stuck with old school 1monster+1equip spell, Fusion summon and Burn Decks if that ever happens which is not healthy at all for the game..
I think, the most important question of all is "What deck are you playing" that forced you to make a post like this??? What bracket are you on, Rookie or KOG or in between?? Are you new to Duel Links???

Because rank matters in a game that has unlimited special summoning and relies on luck more then skill... yeah... ok kid :)

So original Yugioh didn't rely on luck, but now of days Yugioh does, also when you call others kids while whining about non issues