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Are there fun sequences? Of course there are, it's DMC with the original cast. But if you think about anything that's happening for 2 seconds, it completely falls apart.
The plot starts with a broken Vergil who can barely stand upright throwing Nero across the room and ripping his arm off. That whole scene speaks volumes about how STUPID Nero is, even if he shouldn't be. If I'm not mistaken, it's been 5 years since the events of DMC4; I can't think of a single ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ excuse for why he'd be incompetent THIS much.
I don't like to talk about power scaling but even if you do, it makes even less sense. Vergil looks like he's about to fall apart at any second, yet he's still strong enough to tear someone's arm off with no weapons. But let's put that aside for a minute.
Nero is... confused, and the instant he turns around to yell at Kyrie to "get back inside," he's so utterly clumsy and stupid that he doesn't even get the chance to swat a powerless Vergil's hands off, gets thrown across the room, loses an arm, then passes out. Meanwhile, Vergil tears open a portal as if he were the reboot version and the scene is over.
So, first of all, Nero is not supposed to be either this clueless or this weak. He was quite incompetent in DMC4 to begin with, but he was shown to have become stronger by the end (somehow) and had a change of heart (a little wiser). Also, it's been 5 years of devil hunting, so he's more experienced, right? He should have sharp instincts. Hell, he should even be able to sense a connection to Vergil just like how Dante sensed it from Nero. No, I'm not talking about the Devil Bringer arm glowing (too late), I'm talking about some kind of sixth sense. In the DMC4 novel, Dante posits that he feels "something similar to Vergil inside Nero." It would've been a perfect time in this scene for Nero to feel something of himself from this spooky stranger. Some kind of clue besides the arm glowing.
Listen, I have no respect for this character, as I never have. I think he's a terrible character born from a fanfic idea, etc. but my opinions aside, this game portrays him WORSE than before. If you were to claim to be a fan of Nero, I would've expected you to look at this scene and be mad at how horribly the plot ♥♥♥♥♥ on him as illogically as possible.
There is absolutely no reason to think that Nero wouldn't have been able to handle a broken Vergil in this situation. There's absolutely no way that Vergil's going to rip someone's arm off in his current condition, much less a descendent of Sparda at "full power" (compared to him, Nero may as well be at full power at that moment).
Even if we accept that Nero's weaker than Dante at this point, it's quite clear Vergil's much, much, much weaker than that. But the way it's shown, makes it look like he could've ripped Dante's arm off in the same circumstances. This whole sequence is so stupid that it was just one step away from Vergil going like "Hey! Look over there!" before pulling the arm off. "Yoink!"
It reminds me of when I write a brief fanfic myself about Vergil returning, and one of the first things he'd do is go to Nero and take Yamato back. However, even as a stupid teenager, I had the brain capacity to at least TRY TO think this through with SOME logic.
Of course, Vergil's too weak to beat Nero in a fair fight, so that's not going to happen. I didn't write Vergil to be falling apart and wearing a spooky cloak, by the way, I wrote him coming in dressed normally while expecting Nero to confuse him for Dante -- since they're supposed to be identical twins, remember?
Anyway, some words are exchanged and Vergil's not really a very good actor, so Nero realizes this isn't Dante. One thing leads to another and Vergil finds the opportunity to take the Red Queen. Nero still has Yamato inside his arm, so he takes that out, which is what Vergil was waiting for. I don't remember exactly how I wrote what happened next (and I deleted it), but Vergil manages to decapitate Nero, then stabs the Devil Bringer arm with Yamato to absorb its power, and leaves him for dead.
Now, I'm not saying my writing as a teenager was amazing, but at the very least, I still believe that my ideas were more sensible. Vergil pretending to be Dante makes sense as they're identical twins -- at least before THIS game retconned that -- and is a much more intelligent plan than showing up half-dead in a spooky cloak while acting creepily.
Also, giving Nero a fighting chance is more respectful to his character than simply getting his arm ripped off while he's "distracted."
Him initially assuming this is Dante, would give him a much more reasonable way to lower his guard enough to get beaten; last they met, Dante was friendly, even respectful. Nero would be thinking something along the lines of "What happened to him? Is it really him? It can't be. Is this his brother? I thought he was dead. Why do I feel so uneasy?" and so on. Remember, Dante never told him they were related, all he said was that Yamato "was originally my brother's."
If I were to write this scene today, that doubt would be made clear in the dialog. Instead, they chose to portray Nero as completely clueless. I don't like the character, but I dislike bad writing much more than that. This was a great opportunity to show how much he's changed since the events of DMC4, but instead, they just made him dumber than ever, and this isn't the only scene where this is true.
Moreover, he's not even the protagonist in this game. He has no story to be told. As far as the story is concerned, this is Nero's role in it:
Step 1 - Have arm ripped off and lose powers.
Step 2 - ♥♥♥♥♥ about being called "dead weight" several times.
Step 3 - Be told Vergil is his dad but only near the end of the plot so he doesn't have much time to process it.
Step 4 - Have the stupidest phone call ever written where his girlfriend tells him he's "always right."
Step 5 - Cry so hard that his powers AND his arm come back for no reason.
Step 6 - ♥♥♥♥♥ slap both Dante and Vergil after they're already been fighting for who knows how long.
Step 7 - Be given Vergil's diary, which we don't know how useful it is or how meaningful it can be. It was introduced in this game and we know absolutely nothing about what it contains besides William Blake poems.
The reveal that Vergil is his dad should've come about early in the plot. Hell, even Vergil could've just told him in the first place. This story would've been so much more interesting if Nero had had so much time to wrap his head around such revelations. "Dante's brother is alive. They're twins. And Vergil is my father... and I have to stop him. Even if it means killing him." It would've been a thematic repeat of DMC3's plot but it would've been SOMETHING, and more to the point, something MEANINGFUL. The original series themes was always family, ESPECIALLY the fact that the characters have to cope with a terrible parental relationship of some kind; Trish with Mundus, Lucia with Arius, Lady with Arkham, etc. DMC5's should been Nero with Vergil, but they didn't even TRY to do that, not even by the end. There's just NO STORY between them.
Instead, they do the opposite: neither of them know they're related until the end, and by then it's too late to tell any story at all. Nero DT's for the first time since DMC4 while flipping him off and shouting "♥♥♥♥ YOU!" like it's a nod to DmC or something. How embarrassing.
Finally: this is what being a passionate fan looks like. The more you care about something, the more sensitive you become when the creators don't treat it with respect. Of course, DMC4 did it first, and DmC certainly didn't help, but with this game? They couldn't have betrayed the original series, characters, and lore any more blatantly. So I really struggle to relate with the fans absolutely loving this game's story wholeheartedly. I've been with the series since the first game, and I often feel like I just might be the only OG fan who understands these characters at all, much less in-depth, and I have been hated for my criticisms and opinions for well over a decade. I feel so alone. I wish I could just walk away (and I did for two years) but I care too much, and I always come back, because SOMEONE has to care, because I know the creators don't.
"Considering how some of you like to say it's "dumb" writing, you sure do get passionate about it."
Exactly. If I didn't care, I wouldn't be sitting here, typing for hours something that most people won't even bother reading. It's why I don't like most of this fanbase; you people just don't care. You don't like to hear criticism. You don't want to take it seriously, because you believe "you're not supposed to." But you sure do love to point fingers at someone like me who does care, who does have a genuine appreciation for the GOOD writing in the series, however little there is. But people like you, you'd rather just not think about it. DMC5 fans just throw out some blanket statement about how good the story is without actually understanding it in the slightest, and I don't like that at all.
Which would've been perfectly acceptable if V's personality was essentially Vergil without the obsession with power, without having been -- to quote Arkham -- seduced by evil. Instead, we got an emo kid. Which, again, could've worked, if it was still possible to recognize some of Vergil's personality in there, but it's not. We just get some William Blake quotes here and there, which was never a thing until now, and is completely pointless as far as the narrative/themes are concerned.
V talks about Vergil in the third person when he should've been talking about him in the first person. He also makes quips, he tries to act cool, but then again, he shows remorse but then he heel-turns out of nowhere and starts monologuing like a villain before merging with Urizen again.
Urizen, being that evil obsessed with power, keeps repeating that same tired old refrain "I need power! More power!" Which is fine, even if it's been turned by a meme years ago. Urizen is literally that part of Vergil and nothing else, since he can't remember his past despite standing in the memory of Vergil's childhood home. All he can remember is Dante and a desire to beat him.
Then, the heel-turn happens.
V talks about how they are "connected by that one feeling," thus revealing V's true motivation. Everything else he was talking about up to this point is invalidated and was more than likely a bunch of lies to try to get everyone to feel sympathy for him -- even if it doesn't seem that way in the presentation.
So, no, it's not that Vergil "had no idea that he'd be ejected from the devil power and certainly no idea that it would have a mind of its own," because V just proved he wanted the exact same thing. Whether he knew all this would happen is completely irrelevant, both halves still share the same goal.
Moreover, somehow, he still hid this motivation from Griffon. All those scenes when they're alone and talking with each other (and the exposition with Trish and Nero) where we're supposed to be learning about V: all part of the ruse, all part of the sudden plot twist that V was also that memeworthy parody of "More power!" Vergil nonsense.
Not only did they manage to ruin Vergil's whole character, they somehow also managed to ruin V. Great. Job.
Was that really narratively satisfying? Is this what great writing looks like?
I don't have any intention to tell people they are wrong to like any aspect of this game. Personally, I enjoy most of the "anime writing" in the series, but the part starting from the middle of the Dante-Vergil fight until they left involved so many about-faces by Vergil that it made me go WTF. I already wrote about his self-contradictory lines, I won't repeat here.
Re Vergil and fatherhood, many fathers who wanted a baby and are emotionally healthy still need more time to form a true paternal bond with the child than Vergil spent with Nero. But even if Vergil could love an adult son he didn't want and barely knows, there's still the fact that he's a traumatized guy who never loved anyone the Correct Way in his life. He loves his brother and based on how fondly they reminisce about their parents, I think he loved his father too. But as to HOW he loved his father and brother, well, he didn't exactly spoil them (nor the human mother who raised him human and would be devastated by his antics).
What the game shows us is that in Hell, 6-7 weeks after the Qliphoth issue was taken care of, Dante tells Vergil they'll be there forever if they don't stop the fun, and Vergil's like "sounds awesome, actually." He doesn't just say he has no interest in catching up with Nero, he acts like it too. That's because the whole point is to write the twins out of the story with a happy ending, which means Vergil can't want to return and live out his fatherhood. He knows Nero wants him in the Human World and chooses to ignore this and pursue his own fun. This feels more along the lines of, Vergil has always been all about the bloodline, and he's content that he left a successor, and that it's Nero, but that's it. Honestly, the intended reading is probably that the attempted fratricide was like an honor killing he felt he had to do but didn't want to and Nero stepped up.
Anyway, if your stance is to not overthink this game, I wrote numerous times that I can respect that. I suspend disbelief for the most part too, all of Vergil's self-contradictory flip-flops at the end just made me reach the limit of my personal ability to do so. Still had fun, still love the game, though.
As for this supposed "heel turn" he simply comments that Urizen and himself share the lust for power, just because he's V it doesn't mean that feeling goes away but the key detail is during his time as V he learns he was wrong, and he learns the power of humanity was what gave him true strength. The same lesson Dante had to learn but Vergil always thought was beneath him.
Verrgil's plot is a tale of redemption, his journey as V a necessary part that even Sparda knew Vergil would require hence why Vergil received Yamato, not Rebellion (a detail mentioned in the game) and it seems you've unfortunately misinterpreted a fair bit of that journey. Although to be fair to you a lot of the backstory is told in the manga about V which is canon to DMC5 so if you haven't read it I suggest you do.
In short; V is Vergil, and Urizen is the devil in Vergil.
Here's the thing, though:
No.
V looks nothing like him, sounds nothing like him, talks nothing like him.
"Everyone and their grandmother knows Vergil puts up a front at all times."
Also no. Ever played DMC3? Were you also watching the cutscenes and paying attention to the dialog? Not once did it feel like Vergil was being deceitful. Sure, he has a mightier-than-thou attitude sometimes, but that quickly falls away into the background when Dante's standing in front of him.
Vergil's a serious character who doesn't take any ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥--
Except when Dante's in front of him and making stupid remarks. Vergil will even "drop all pretense" to respond to him, every single time.
D: You sure know how to throw a party! No food, no drinks, and the only babe just left.
V: My sincerest apologies, brother. I was so eager to see you, I... couldn't concentrate on preparations for the bash.
D: I'm sure you've got time for one more game, right?
V: Why not. After all, we share the same blood. I'll just use more of yours to undo Daddy's little spell!
That second encounter is of particular note. Vergil's frustrated that the ritual wasn't working, and then Dante shows up again and they shared some exposition, culminating in that little exchange. Vergil even smiles, which he did... once? Twice, if you count the chuckle at the end -- which was also at something Dante said. Even if it was a condescending chuckle, what exactly do you think the "front" is?
What, exactly, do you perceive as him being dishonest? By the end of the story, he knows he's already lost the fight. But at the very least, he's keeping his half of the Amulet and he's choosing to stay in the Demon World.
The worst you can say about his personality is that he makes the wrong decisions every step of the way, and that's part of his tragedy. He's so intent on never showing weakness that he'd rather be damned. That's both his weakness and his strength as a character, as an antagonist, and as Dante's twin brother. Not that Dante always makes the right call, but he does make decisions based on his own feelings for other people, whereas Vergil makes choices based on what he wants for himself. That slice at Dante's hand wasn't to protect him, it was to assert his own decision.
"his time as V he learns he was wrong, and he learns the power of humanity was what gave him true strength."
This is such a wrong interpretation that it baffles me anyone could possibly come to this conclusion. Before merging with Urizen, V is falling apart. All he cares about leading to the merging is the merging itself to save his own life. He's not thinking about "the friends he made along the way," he's only thinking about himself, which is just about the ONLY trait he shares with Vergil.
To continue the earlier thought on your "front" theory, V's actions prove that he's the one pretending. As I said before, everything he said to other characters is immediately proven to be false when he comes to Urien, reveals his motive was just power too, and merges with him. V manipulated everyone into taking sympathy for him to get to this point -- which, by the way, relies on so many variables that it's a freaking miracle he actually succeeded, but I digress.
This is exactly why I say V is a completely different character, because he actually is a dishonest POS rat bastard with the "front" you think Vergil always had and you're wrong.
"Verrgil's plot is a tale of redemption"
Nothing in the narrative illustrates this. Absolutely nothing. Vergil got his wish: he got his power and beat Dante before Nero showed up, and by the end, he abandons the Human World and Nero, once again, of his own decision. He's still only thinking about himself and didn't redeem ANYTHING.
Some fans still to this day believe Vergil was a villain in DMC3, when that was Arkham. Vergil only raised the tower because it was the only way to get to Sparda's power -- and if people died because of the Hell Gate, it was something he didn't care about.
But in this game, he, Urizen, and V, is literally doing EVERYTHING deliberately as a villain.
He ripped Nero's arm off, he raised the Qliphoth which consumed people "everywhere" to create the fruit, he manipulated everyone, he abandons his son and returns to Hell just to have fun with his brother, and you somehow came to the conclusion that he's redeemed himself?
What dimension are you from where that is true? Vergil's supposed to be a morally gray character, but this game ruined him in every single possible way, and not even the brotherly fighting schtick can save him now. He did every single possible thing he could do wrong and by the end, it's pretty clear that he's a far worse character than he used to be.
"his journey as V a necessary part that even Sparda knew Vergil would require hence why Vergil received Yamato,"
Uh huh, Sparda could see the future. He totally knew DMC5's plot was going to be so convoluted and stupid that that's the reason why he saved the Human World in the first place! All according to his divine plan! HAAAAIL SPARDA
"it seems you've unfortunately misinterpreted a fair bit of that journey."
Oh look who is in the 99%. But I knew that already.
"Although to be fair to you a lot of the backstory is told in the manga about V which is canon to DMC5 so if you haven't read it I suggest you do."
Thanks but no thanks, I'm not subjecting myself to any more bad writing than I have to. The game's bad enough as it is, so no, I'm not reading that crap. More to the point, it is completely irrelevant to the plot of the game as it is presented. The manga's optional; If it really is supposed to be important to my understanding of the story, then they should've put it in the game in some form. They didn't, so it's irrelevant. Also, how's MORE bad writing going to fix the existing bad writing in the game? It's not. It's still bad regardless. Vergil's character still thoroughly ruined.
"In short; V is Vergil, and Urizen is the devil in Vergil."
And you, as a member of the 99%, will be happy in accepting terrible awful writing as canon, like always. Unfortunately, I gave my last box of crayons away a while back, but I'll admit, you certainly deserve a coloring book as a reward!
Vergil: Wears long ash-colored hair.
V: Has a manner of fixing his hair.
Vergil: Has a manner of fixing his hair.
V: Uses summoning cane-swords to destroy demons.
Vergil: Uses summoning swords to destroy demons.
V: - "I need more strength"
Vergil: - "I need more power"
...yeah, they have nothing in common
@lblsbly: You have zero concept of nuance.
By your logic, Dante is also Vergil. White hair, changes hairstyle in every game (in other words, fixes it), uses summoned swords (Lucifer, DSD, etc), wants power (because he has it etc).
Oh, for that matter, Nero is also Vergil.
By this logic, we can also say Nero is Dante.
Hell, Dante is V.
V is Nero.
Vergil is Dante.
Dante Vergil is Nero V Dante Vergil Vergil is Nee Dee VeeVeeVee Dante Gilver is Leeleepeepeedoodoocacamouth.
Trish.
See, I can do it too.
Vergil asked Vergil's brother, Vergil's son and Vergil's mom's clone to defeat Vergil in order to reunite with Vergil, become Vergil again, and have one hellish party with Vergil's brother
Replay the game, read the V manga.
Vergil hated being a mix between a human and a demon, just because he felt powerless from his childhood trauma, and DMC 3's intro CLEARLY TELLS that Dante and Vergil had a twisted rivalry with each other, one of the reasons they fight, because in the DMC 3 manga we know Dante is doing the best he can to stop Vergil from letting demons free. The guy knows his mother died because of demons, his younger brother tried to talk with him, and it didn't matter, Vergil was too traumatized to even think properly about what he was going to do, his emotions, anything human related, he didn't care beyond not feeling weak anymore.
So it makes complete sense, especially his DEMON SIDE, to raise a mf tree that will kill every damm human to give him power, plus get the chance to beat Dante's ass to prove he is the strongest one alive, he already thought he surpassed Sparda, now the only one left was Dante, that was able to beat him as Nelo Angelo and Mundus. Vergil's regret from everthing he has done bad comes from his human side, and that's why he and Dante will solve things now in the underworld by fighting and talking with each other.
You need to remember these two were around 7 or 8 when their lost their mother, both heavily messed up in the head because of it. Vergil wasn't really mature, he is a scared child inside from what happened that day, and Dante hides his sadness, depression and etc with his jokes and such, especially in the past, they are not ok by any means.