Religion basics

[jairgraham]

Religions are very interestingly implemented in this game, but I've noted quite a few threads asking about them and how they work, so I decided to consolidate my observations.

Founding religions: Not that important. Founding religions, and especially your state religion, is helpful in a handful of ways. The most notable ones is that you get to build the wonder that gives you a disciple every twenty years and you get pilgrimage money. Also if you found a religion you have that religion, you don't have to wait for passive spread or an event. These are all good things, but they're not at all mandatory to gain the core benefits of religious spread, even if you want a temple and monastery iconography focused game. It isn't like Civ 4 where you lose the central benefits if you miss founding, and it's not at all like the silly Civ 5-6 implementations where your religion is just another facet of your nation. World religions don't really belong to anyone in old world, and the founding bonuses are notable, but not critical.

Cleric families are good with well established religions with theologies and laws that support the value of religious buildings. Because founding a religion isn't mandatory, and isn't very hard, I don't think I'd ever use the 'found religion' option they give you. While clerics probably have some of the stronger late-game bonuses, they're pretty weak early and I'd opine they're one of the worst families to choose overall.

As to the particular religions: Zoroastrianism is probably the most reliable and direct one to found. You need Divination, two shrines, and to acolytes. This is a diversion from simply building the settlers and soldiers to expand with and you probably have to tech Divination first to get it, which means not teching towards a better unit or other resources you need. Even so I think every civ has at least two pagan shrines worth building early, and acolytes are weak but helpful specialists for early science. Starting divination is helpful of course, but really you probably want to get some basic stuff like a farm out first anyway and it's just as well to wait until your second city is founded, shrine each city, and then go acolytes. I find I get Zoro pretty consistently doing that, even more so if my second family is artisans so I have a worker ready to go.

Judaism requires both animal husbandry and labor force, so it's a little deeper down the tech tree, but if you're going for Chariots anyway it's more 'on your way' than Zoro, and because it's a little later you don't have to sacrifice early game turns as much to get it. On the other hand the two ranchers are not as good as the two acolytes in general, and you have less control over where you build them, one city with two pastures takes longer than two cities with one pasture each.

The Jewish founder probably gets Christianity, but not always, if Judaism is founded in a backwater and spreads to someone else capital then the capital will probably get it. It takes Metaphysics and a size 12 Jewish city afterall. Christianity features +5% per turn spread over the old religions and comes with a free disciple to book. If you founded Judiasim and want to go tolerance/religious spam then these two religions easily go hand in hand. And founding both of them usually makes Pilgamage strong, if you want to go that way.

Finally there is Manichean. In theory it should go to the first person who gets Monasticism and is delayed until Christianity and Zoroastrianism both have two cities. In practice it seems pretty random where it pops up. It comes just a smidge late and is just a little too unpredictable to rely on. If anyone has insights into the detailed founding mechanics of this let me know. It has the same free diciple and +5% that Christiantiy does.

Now, I'll take a second to say that having a religion before the monasticism tech is not very worthwhile. You get to take advantage of some free spread and perhaps get the shrine up and those are good things, but they're not make or break things. If Manichean was always founded at monasticism it would be easily on par with the other religions. The extra 5% spread for later religions does mater, it's like a weak form of the free disciple every 20 turns so all other things being equal if you get an option on a late religion around the time of getting the monasticism technology you should tend to take the later one over the early one. Of course if the early one is everywhere and the late one is one city, then take the early one.

Once you get monasteries things start to pay off. Monestaries give a little science, Monks are at least a solid urban specialist, and monasteries are pretty cheap build anywhere urban, which means they claim tiles around them, and if you pair them with a cottage you have the perquisites for an urban deveopment anywhere. Do you need a hot bath but the river is far? Monestary + cottage. Landgrab towards an opponent with a forward stronghold? Monestary + cottage. Want that far away luxary? Monestary + cottage. Is your town center just too cramped? Monestary + cottage. That's not the only way to active that, there are options to build urban tiles or you can use two cottages if you get the culture level there. But monestary + 1 cottage is availible at a low culture level and is cheap and early. Pagan shrines can replace monasteries to this end for the supply of them, or if you want polytheism for some reason.

Temples are also nice, Cathedrals are great but limited. But it is at the humble monastery level that founding or spreading a religion starts to really pay off.

As for theologies. Your core religion should get them all as soon as practical, it's possible the course of the game will religion switch you and you could set up two religions with good theologies but it's probably not worth the effort of doing so intentionally.

For Teir 1 Mythology for culture is great. Four culture is a lot for a new city and a respectable amount for a developed one. I've used Veneration when I got an early tribal alliance and needed every penny I could get to buy tribal sites. Legalism is an interesting option, and probably better than Veneration for money late game while still giving you that nice civics boost. But probably Mythology in general or veneration if you need early money is best.

For Teir 2, revelation gives orders, which is huge. And it gives +20% spread chance, which is also huge. It's certainly the strongest of the Teir 2 theologies. Gnosticism is good for science, while Dualism is pretty much just worse than Gnosticism and should only be taken as a last resort. Overal Teir 2 theologies are the least impactful as they all rely on having temples, which you may not have for a long while depending on your military priorities.

For Teir 3, Enlightenment gives 3 happy with monks, and monks are already good enough to have. Unless you already have contentment under control I'd take that every time. It takes forestry, which you probably want, and doesn't need cathedrals, which you can probably ignore until later. Enlightenment comes much earlier than redemption in terms of payoff since you can already have some monks set up anticipating it. Redemption gives very strong boosts to your overall economy, but it's value is more mid-late-game when your economy should already be humming along on its own. Plus the benefit of redemption is limited to cathedral cities, so they need strong culture at least and you have limits on how many you can place. And of course play the game as it comes, I had a Rome game where I had Vaulting but not Monasticism, so enlightenment was low value to me and I didn't do anything with religions until very late, even though I founded some. Oddball games give room for secondary choices to be better.

IIRC enlightenment doesn't care which religion of monk you have, so you can have multiples. And I think redemption doesn't care which religion the cathedral is from, so possibly you could stack +80% output in a megacity with four cathedrals of four religions. Can anyone confirm or deny this last paragraph?

You get positive religion opinion from building and training specialists of any given religion, and some from spreads, so the opinion itself is not very hard to manage, even when you run 2-3 religions. In fact I usually ignore religions I founded because a few legitimacy is worth the - oppinion for x time in most cases.

The religions also have their own even sets, which I'm sure are worth analyzing but I don't know enough to compare and contrast their value.

Finally the Laws. Monotheism>Polytheism in most cases, orders are so important and shrines are generally weak early game builds (certain exceptions like Romes war forests accepted). Tolerance is good 'at peace' while Orthodoxy is good 'at war', or more like when preparing for war. Rush with orders is very expensive, both because orders are valuable and just the raw price of things. It may be worth popping into Orthodoxy in certain situations to orders rush stuff but in general just go tolerance, the higher the difficulty you're on the more you need happy. Of course if no non state religions spread to your areas at all it may be moot. Purging religions seems like a waste of time in every case. Iconography is very strong if you have religious infrastructure. If you got lots of libraries early calligraphy can be better, but if you have religion it's generally not. OTOH if you're trying to squeeze every culture point you can get out of your civ then Calligraphy is okay. Iconography also blocks non-state religion spread, which is usually a bad thing, so I guess it's not as clean-cut as I made it out to be at first. Pilgrimage is the peace time option, and it's worth taking if the map demands it and you have several Holy Cities and need money, but Holy War is usually the better option, even at peace, due to the rush option and free promotion. Gold is usually something you have a lot of options to get so a way to spend it is generally better than a way to get a little more of it.

Thoughts? Feedback?

[krabdr]

First off. Founding a religion provides a ton of culture points because the religious building is so strong for culture and it can be built anywhere. I try to build them near groves so that the monasteries can be adjacent to the grove. The initial building also gives you control over the religious leadership which is another strength in terms of other civs as well as your families.

Second, Divination is very important, not just for the forest shrines of Rome and Assyria, but also for the animal/growth shrines for traders or for rexing population during a tribal alliance. I also like the Nuska or shields one that provides +2 shields in the city. That can make for more rapid military development throughout the game. Then there's the Acolytes. They provide a huge intellect and movement point bonus early on and I try to get all four developed when possible. I rarely develop more, but that depends on the civics in each city and whether I'm looking at a warring neighbor.

Third, Polytheism can be an excellent choice if you only have a few cities. You can spam your shrines to gain their benefits and, as you've pointed out, you can couple them with hamlets to get better building zones. I frequently run Polytheism to place one or two of the best shrines and then switch to Monotheism after I've spread religion enough to warrant it. Polytheism with the Heliopolis is one of the best movement combinations out there.

On Clerics as a starting family: they may seem like a weak family, but two things really make them strong. First, they start with monasteries and so once you found a religion, you rock out the monasteries, and with mythology, your culture booms. Heck, I've had a couple games where I used their Found Religion to found all four. And then with booming culture you build better wonders due to your higher culture... Second, Clerics are great on Desert maps. Hands down, they make desert cities much less crowded.

Orthodoxy vs. Tolerance, Calligraphy vs. Icongraphy, Divine Rule vs. Legalism, Pilgrimage vs. Holy War? these are all situationally dependent, the situations being whether I've founded more than one religion (Tolerance), whether I've spread religion well (Divine Rule) or whether I need civics (Rule of Law or Legalism) and so on.

Mythology > Dualism > whatever's your fancy.

My only qualms with religion are that I either forget to develop it and do so too late to help much, or that I have developed it too far and the acolytes accumulate like lint. I wish they could do a few other things like road building or beer making...

[tiamats4esgares]

I usually just ignore religion as much as possible. Maybe I should try to pay attention to it some.

[Metal Gear Banana]

Originally posted by tiamats4esgares:

I usually just ignore religion as much as possible. Maybe I should try to pay attention to it some.

Religion in this game is a very useful way for keeping characters happy, which means more productivity, more positive outcomes, and fewer war declarations

[mk11]

One of the bonuses of founding a religion is that you can produce non-state religion disciples without needing Tolerance. If you have a cleric family that means you can get a monastery up in every city before researching doctrine.

If you have an early monastery rush Legalism can be good (need civics to get the monks). Generally though Mythology sounds best.

Gnosticism is almost always best.

Generally, I like a mix of Englightment and Redemption.

With Polytheism you can build 4 shrines and 4 expert acolytes for 4 orders per city (of course that is a lot of investment to get there). Shrines + Expert acolytes are one of the few ways to get orders early other than some pastures/camps, garrisons, and legitimacy

[jairgraham]

Originally posted by krabdr:

...

First, what's the strength of dualism I'm missing? It looks to me like dualism is +1-+4 science with +2 being normal given you have two religions, while Gnosticism is +1 per urban specialist, which I'd usually have at least a couple of and quite possibly more than four in major centers. Possibly I just build too many urban specialists?

Next, I do agree founding the religion is ideal. I'm just kind of comparing it to Civ 4 (or other civs which are worse) where failure to found can destroy your entire play-style and strategy. Failure to found in Old World is a modest, but not terrible setback.

Oh yeah, grove adjacency is definitely worth mentioning, thanks for bringing it up, and acolytes giving orders is another things I undervalued in my original post, you're right that's very important. The poly->mono switch after throwing out a few extra shrines is a fantastic idea, thank you so much for mentioning it. That would make the necropolis very strong.

I did not know/notice that clerics started with the ability to build monasteries. I take it back, they're very good. Can't you just kind of ignore monasticism at that point and tech other priorities? And I agree the desert maps things deserves mention, I just haven't played a desert map yet.

Originally posted by tiamats4esgares:

I usually just ignore religion as much as possible. Maybe I should try to pay attention to it some.

Just try starting by throwing some monasteries around when the option arises, and go from there. That's a good way to get your toes wet.

Originally posted by mk11:

One of the bonuses of founding a religion is that you can produce non-state religion disciples without needing Tolerance.

Didn't know that either, that's a pretty good bonus, and the other fellow also mentioned clerics can do early monasteries, which I agree is huge. Thank you.

[Twelvefield]

Originally posted by tiamats4esgares:

I usually just ignore religion as much as possible. Maybe I should try to pay attention to it some.

I used to be the same way. I went the other way and formed a nation of orthodox religious zeal that lasted a thousand years! That was really hard for me to do, and my people were either happy with the unified religious rule or ready to throw all clergy over the cliff, with no in between. Eventually, the rebels won and my hard-fought order crumbled like the cookie that didn't get eaten in The Matrix. It was spectacular.

Moderation in all things.

[Siontific]

Originally posted by jairgraham:

Originally posted by krabdr:

...

First, what's the strength of dualism I'm missing?

Time. Dualism comes online signficantly faster and with less effort than Gnosticism. Generally speaking, science now is better than science later. Of course, as with anything, it's subjective; I like gnosticism for the civics, and will run it with sage nations.

However, Dualism is usually going to get you moving through the tech tree quicker than gnosticism will.

Also, Dualism shows the benefit of religious founding; relgion spreads from the holy city - if you found two world religions as a clerics nation and you have your pagan faith, adopting dualism ASAP is just going to boost your science better and it will increase passively. Perhaps not longterm, but I don't really care what gnosticism can do for me on turn 100 when dualism can do it on turn 40.

The science from Gnosticism doesn't work without Doctrine. (or Jebel Barkal)

[jairgraham]

Originally posted by Feigro:

Originally posted by jairgraham:

First, what's the strength of dualism I'm missing?

Makes sense, thanks!

[krabdr]

Originally posted by Feigro:

Originally posted by jairgraham:

First, what's the strength of dualism I'm missing?

Time. Dualism comes online signficantly faster and with less effort than Gnosticism. Generally speaking, science now is better than science later. Of course, as with anything, it's subjective; I like gnosticism for the civics, and will run it with sage nations.

However, Dualism is usually going to get you moving through the tech tree quicker than gnosticism will.

Also, Dualism shows the benefit of religious founding; relgion spreads from the holy city - if you found two world religions as a clerics nation and you have your pagan faith, adopting dualism ASAP is just going to boost your science better and it will increase passively. Perhaps not longterm, but I don't really care what gnosticism can do for me on turn 100 when dualism can do it on turn 40.

The science from Gnosticism doesn't work without Doctrine. (or Jebel Barkal)

Feigro nailed it. Time, plus in some games you just can't build a lot of specialists which really amps up Gnosticism. Dualism is cheap and easy, and now there are even events that may move it to other teachings.