Grenades

[acur1231]

The Grenadiers should be able to throw black powder grenades. It would help with storming fortifications and such.

[MiSFiT77]

Long story short grenadiers didn't have grenades during this period.

[acur1231]

Originally posted by MiSFiT77:

Long story short grenadiers didn't have grenades during this period.

They did. Grenades have been used since the 800s. During this period, Grenadiers used black powder grenades, which is where their name comes from. They were the assault troops of the time because only the strongest could chuck a heavy ball of powder any distance, and thus formed a heavy mob of soldiers good at attacking fortifications.

[KhanWolf95]

Originally posted by MiSFiT77:

Long story short grenadiers didn't have grenades during this period.

You don't know your history.

[Bertrand Sawa]

Originally posted by KRIEGER ︻芫═──:

Originally posted by MiSFiT77:

Long story short grenadiers didn't have grenades during this period.

You don't know your history.

He knows better than you

Could one "grenades for grenadiers" supporter explain to me from what kind of source they know that greandiers of 19th century used grenades?
Book? Article? Wiki?

I mean they should be some kind source for these revelation except of GRENADiers, with no offence or attacking somebody i am just curious.
If someones has any kind of sorce mentioning that napoloenics age grenadiers had grenades, could he show it?
Because finding one where they didnt is easy task, just write it in google..

Here is a good one, from Reddit/AskHistorians made by user named deVerence

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6e48y1/what_was_the_tactical_purpose_of_grenadier/di80l2x/

some fragments:

"Grenadiers did indeed start out as throwers of hand grenades. In most major armies who had them, specialised units dedicated to this task were established in the 16- and early 1700s. Grenades at the time were hollow iron balls, filled with gunpowder and lit with a fuse (think a Donald Duck/cartoon-style bomb, and you should get the picture). The contraption was fairly heavy, and throwing it accurately from distance required training and strength. From very early on grenadiers therefore began acquiring a reputation for being stronger/more elite than other infantrymen.

By the middle of the 18th century, the hand grenade had largely lost its place in the regular infantry arsenal – having been made obsolete by improvements in arms and more. The grenade was retained for use in specific circumstances (such as ship boarding actions), but would not find more widespread use again before the First World War brought about a major revival...

tl;dr

Through most of their existence, grenadiers did not use grenades. The romanticised computer game/Hollywood image of Revolutionary/Napoleonic era soldiers with hand grenades is largely inaccurate. During the 18th and early 19th centuries, grenadiers were instead considered elite line infantry, often made up of the tallest and most imposing recruits available. They performed the same battlefield tasks as other line soldiers, and over time grenadiers gradually became more and more similar to these."


Idea to give grenades in the game is fine, it is just a game, but shouldnt they were given to sappers instead of grenadiers? When they come of course

[MiSFiT77]

Yep. Historically grenades where seldom used during the Napoleonic wars. Also, purely from a game play pov (historical or not) No thanks. It's bad enough that Rifles are op without adding another super soldier to the battlefield. If Grenadiers get grenades then everyone will want to play grenadier simply because he has explosives and can rack up easy kills. If Grenadiers are to get an update it should be around size and strength (like guards). These would have been big strong guys, the last guy you would want to go into melee against and that imo is where there strength or advantage should be.

[acur1231]

Originally posted by MiSFiT77:

Yep. Historically grenades where seldom used during the Napoleonic wars. Also, purely from a game play pov (historical or not) No thanks. It's bad enough that Rifles are op without adding another super soldier to the battlefield. If Grenadiers get grenades then everyone will want to play grenadier simply because he has explosives and can rack up easy kills. If Grenadiers are to get an update it should be around size and strength (like guards). These would have been big strong guys, the last guy you would want to go into melee against and that imo is where there strength or advantage should be.

They were seldom used on general campaigns, and not by normal soldiers, unlike the grenades were are used to, which are a product of WW1. However, Grenadiers still carried and used them for assaulting fortifications, much like how later assault engineers or pioneers would carry satchel charges. For maps like Fort Salettes, such grenades would be really useful, even if you can only toss them about 5 feet in front of you. The explosion would not be a big one, and it takes quite a while to take out, light and throw such a heavy ball. It would not be OP, just a novelty.

As for infantry balance, ideally:

Guards: Best shooting ability with muskets, on par with light infantry. Best melee stats.

Grenadiers: Best melee stats, grenades

Line Infantry: Average shooting ability, average melee stats

Light Infantry: Best shooting ability with muskets, poor melee.

But melee itself should be looked at, it would focus more on blocking than dodging the blade. Maybe a melee system like that of Verdun?

[Kubiasty]

No! no no no to grenades!

[Bertrand Sawa]

Originally posted by acur1231:

They were seldom used on general campaigns, and not by normal soldiers, unlike the grenades were are used to, which are a product of WW1. However, Grenadiers still carried and used them for assaulting fortifications, much like how later assault engineers or pioneers would carry satchel charges.

Doubt it
19th Grenadiers equipment dont contain grenades and didnt train how to use it, in term of grenades use they were not better than any other type of infantry regiment. They were mostly weterans, but never comparable to any sort of engineers or pioneers..

It is obvious, they could use it in sieges, but such as any other infantry types..

but it is just a game and not everything need to be historical pure :P
And your example with fort Salette as place for grenades is right, in siege mode attacking artylery is obsolete because most of the fight take place inside

Still if we will get grenades i would prefer that sappers will have them
Because we have waay to many grenadiers slots and as MiSFit mentioned, it would turn to grenade spam

Originally posted by acur1231:

As for infantry balance, ideally:

Guards: Best shooting ability with muskets, on par with light infantry. Best melee stats.

Grenadiers: Best melee stats, grenades

Line Infantry: Average shooting ability, average melee stats

Light Infantry: Best shooting ability with muskets, poor melee.

Your idea is what everyone waiting for, but line infantry need to have something too or they are goint to vanish from public play :)
More, significant buffs from musicans and flag maybe?

[Ikthallion]

Trouble with trying to code different melee stats is that it's completely meaningless with the melee code we have. It's not stats that make people spin 360/720 and attack/recharge attack at lightning speed, and strength isn't even a thing.
The people who know how to use the current melee code are the real killers on the battlefield ( and have been for months ) not riflemen, who are complained about by mainly by the stabby guys they try to stop, also by the people who have decided to jump on the hater bandwagon, and people who never get the chance to pick them because of their slower game load speeds ( last one sucks but it's not the rifle guys faults ).
The class has already had it's accuracy lowered ( reload speed nerf would have made more sense imo ) and gets less bonus points than the other classes for a kill, if you're looking to get a high score the rifle is the last class you should pick, but it's still a good one if you want to help out your team by picking out important or dangerous targets, just don't expect to get any thanks for it, not even from your own team.

Anyway in regards to the point of the original post, grenadiers of this time period definitely don't fling grenades as a matter of course ( though earlier they did ).
There is something to be said though for allowing limited grenade use in game, after all we already have artistic licence in regards to the french Tirailleurs having rifles for balance purposes.
If you did give grenadiers grenades though you'd probably have to limit their numbers, which again could mean that many players would be unable to pick them, I'm inclined to agree with the people in this thread that limiting them to sappers/carpenters for demolition work probably makes more sense.

[Bertrand Sawa]

Meh, hating riflemen is more of the habit than a fact..
They were nerfed many times, but in some terms not as they should be
Just as you say, their accuraccy should stay as was but reloads speed should be longer..
And your point about, let be honest, meeles exploit is the waay bigger problem.
I dont prefer close combat and usually trying to avoid it (most of time NA server is filled with players so i dont have a choice but with ping over 200 it is better for me to just run away).
With meele in these state we can forget about cavalry anytime soon

[MiSFiT77]

Originally posted by ikthalion:

Trouble with trying to code different melee stats is that it's completely meaningless with the melee code we have. It's not stats that make people spin 360/720 and attack/recharge attack at lightning speed, and strength isn't even a thing.
The people who know how to use the current melee code are the real killers on the battlefield ( and have been for months ) not riflemen, who are complained about by mainly by the stabby guys they try to stop, also by the people who have decided to jump on the hater bandwagon, and people who never get the chance to pick them because of their slower game load speeds ( last one sucks but it's not the rifle guys faults ).
The class has already had it's accuracy lowered ( reload speed nerf would have made more sense imo ) and gets less bonus points than the other classes for a kill, if you're looking to get a high score the rifle is the last class you should pick, but it's still a good one if you want to help out your team by picking out important or dangerous targets, just don't expect to get any thanks for it, not even from your own team.

Anyway in regards to the point of the original post, grenadiers of this time period definitely don't fling grenades as a matter of course ( though earlier they did ).
There is something to be said though for allowing limited grenade use in game, after all we already have artistic licence in regards to the french Tirailleurs having rifles for balance purposes.
If you did give grenadiers grenades though you'd probably have to limit their numbers, which again could mean that many players would be unable to pick them, I'm inclined to agree with the people in this thread that limiting them to sappers/carpenters for demolition work probably makes more sense.

In fairness Rifles are not as bad as they used to be. Remember when there where 10 per side ? But I also agree they nerfed the wrong things. Making it harder for them to top the table was I think a little unfair (and it's well documented how much I dislike these guys). For me it should have been slower reload speeds (as you said) and my personal peeve take away that little sword the rifle guy carries. But I digress. Explosives for Sappers would be a better solution as some of you have already said. It would make a little more sense historically while not introducing a WMD to the game.

[Cpt.Esq.Sr.Col.Oliford]

Rockets just had to be nerfed because of all the ridiculous explosions that were blowing far too many people up and now you want to give that ability to 20 people? Are you mad?

[XXX_Romania4lyfe_XXX]

Originally posted by WaWCpt.Esq.Sr.Col.Oliford:

Rockets just had to be nerfed because of all the ridiculous explosions that were blowing far too many people up and now you want to give that ability to 20 people? Are you mad?

no i am german

[Kieko]

As someone who has participated in every melee beta, I don’t know how to improve the system beyond what it is. I think the best thing for it would be to go back to the way things were when you dealt consistent damage regardless of where you hit or your momentum or the time the bayonet is in flight before it hits. Back in the day when everything was one hit. Maybe have the lower attack need one more hit than the upper but that’s as far as I’d go without worrying about dying to annoying damage values. The only difference from what is was would be that the damage is dependant on class, here’s what I’m thinking:
Grenadiers and guards - one hit
Line infantry, vistula, all those guys - two hit
Light infantry - three hit

These values can be balanced with lower shooting stats like accuracy and reload time for those with high melee damage meaning that if you pick a class then you’re telling your team what part you intend to play on the battlefield.

Buffs from flags and musicians can also be different dependant on what class it’s acting on in order to suit their needs. For example, a fifer could play some music and the light infantry would be more accurate, the line infantry could have a lower reload speed, and the grenadier could slowly heal over time. It doesn’t have to be those exact examples, they’re just to get the picture across. Perhaps line infantry could also have a unique buff in the presence of officers and guards to further encourage line battles in pubs
These class differences could really help get people playing a specific class for a specific purpose as intended - I’ll tend to melee on pubs because my shootings awful so you’ll only see me playing grenadier whereas those that prefer role play will have a reason to play as line.

As for swords, I don’t see that much difference in terms of ability between classes so the damage should be purely based on the sword itself rather than who uses it. I’m thinking that the up-strike is always two hits and everything else is three(?). I think the range of the sword should also be messed around with as when trying to put range them I find that it’s risky going even the full length of the bayonet away as any closer and you can get hit.

Pistols, idk. They’re far too deadly, I think everyone can agree on that. With they’re high accuracy that rivals the rifle even at high range and the ability to one shot if you hit in close range and if you head shot at anywhere further. That along side it’s high reload speed makes it the winners choice for most shoot outs so I’d say something should be done about it although don’t play it enough nor do I know enough history to actually know what that balancing factor should be, perhaps an accuracy debuff.

As for riflemen, I’d agree that their reload speed should have just been decreased instead of how they get a lower score for streaks and the accuracy debuff as it was historically.

Oh yeah, this is supposed to be about grenades lol.

Grenadiers having grenades, at the time, is not true, as a few people have mentioned. That being said, this is also a game so fun is the main priority. Grenades could be fun but I wouldn’t want to see them implemented without further class differences being added such as the damage values as I have mentioned. That along with maybe an overhaul that gives every unique class a special item or ability. Other than that, it’s up to the devs to choose how far they want to go with historical accuracy

[acur1231]

Grenades were used in the Napoleonic Wars. They were cast iron balls filled with gunpowder, with a fuse sticking out, a bit like the stock cartoon bomb. They were rare, but Tiger tanks were extremely rare and still appear in most WW2 games. Not to mention that they were much more common than rockets.

Just google it, images will come up.