Make Throwing Knives Scale With Brutality

[Yamete]

I loved playing that with phaser and assasin dagger. I just loved running around and killing people around. Please don't take that away from me.

[815|Shouldabeen]

Throwing Knives are already considered one of the most over powered weapons in the game. Giving them more at this point is a bad idea. If they changed them to straight brutality, I'd be okay with that tho

[Yamete]

Well, i don't use it as a bow like weapon i use it between attacks or while i run at my enemies. I don't know how it's used right now but I think it should be used like that. Like you said, only with brutality scale is fine for me too.

[815|Shouldabeen]

people just get 2 of them and twin fire them. It does an enormous amount of damage and because most of the upgraded skills give tactics points, you end up with so much damage so early in the game

[Yamete]

It kinda seems like a no-brainer way to do that much damage i just tried it. Yeah it shouldn't be used like that.

[815|Shouldabeen]

it puts the game on easy mode. The only fight i felt like I struggled a bit with is the watcher. The tentacles seem hard to deal with on that build. Might be why I see a lot of people complaining about him

whenever i play it, i just rebind both fire buttons to the same button in the settings. it doesn't quite twin fire them the same way as when you hit both buttons at the same time manually, but saves a lot of mashing

[KoUJkoDeBo4ka]

Why do you need full-brutality for them, just build tactics, :0
Maybe I would agree on tactics\brutality, so that You would have options for brutality-based build (extra damage when enemies nearby bleed, extra damage for 2+ enemies nearby, extra damage from consecutive kills), but why do You think, that this is a good idea to TAKE AWAY My tactic-based tranquility+support+x2 ammo+ double TK + double turrets setup?

[815|Shouldabeen]

İlk olarak Ezergile tarafından gönderildi:

Why do you need full-brutality for them, just build tactics, :0

either you didn't read the content or don't understand it

[KoUJkoDeBo4ka]

İlk olarak 815|Shouldabeen tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Ezergile tarafından gönderildi:

Why do you need full-brutality for them, just build tactics, :0

either you didn't read the content or don't understand it

okay, I read it more carefully and saw the reasoning, but yet, why only make them brutality-based then? It would be better to return them to mixed between Brutality and tactics, because those would have diversity of some sort. This I could agree with, but TRADE Brutality-scale over tactics is just does not appeal as something good.

[815|Shouldabeen]

İlk olarak Ezergile tarafından gönderildi:

Why do you need full-brutality for them, just build tactics, :0
Maybe I would agree on tactics\brutality, so that You would have options for brutality-based build (extra damage when enemies nearby bleed, extra damage for 2+ enemies nearby, extra damage from consecutive kills), but why do You think, that this is a good idea to TAKE AWAY My tactic-based tranquility+support+x2 ammo+ double TK + double turrets setup?

DW, they'll nerf that build soon enough anyway.

İlk olarak Ezergile tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak 815|Shouldabeen tarafından gönderildi:

either you didn't read the content or don't understand it

okay, I read it more carefully and saw the reasoning, but yet, why only make them brutality-based then? It would be better to return them to mixed between Brutality and tactics, because those would have diversity of some sort. This I could agree with, but TRADE Brutality-scale over tactics is just does not appeal as something good.

Because buffing the already super OP build by just adding another potential scaling option is a bad idea. You can beat 3 cell 1 handed if you have half a brain while playing double TK in its current state

[KoUJkoDeBo4ka]

İlk olarak 815|Shouldabeen tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Ezergile tarafından gönderildi:

Why do you need full-brutality for them, just build tactics, :0
Maybe I would agree on tactics\brutality, so that You would have options for brutality-based build (extra damage when enemies nearby bleed, extra damage for 2+ enemies nearby, extra damage from consecutive kills), but why do You think, that this is a good idea to TAKE AWAY My tactic-based tranquility+support+x2 ammo+ double TK + double turrets setup?

DW, they'll nerf that build soon enough anyway.

İlk olarak Ezergile tarafından gönderildi:

okay, I read it more carefully and saw the reasoning, but yet, why only make them brutality-based then? It would be better to return them to mixed between Brutality and tactics, because those would have diversity of some sort. This I could agree with, but TRADE Brutality-scale over tactics is just does not appeal as something good.

Because buffing the already super OP build by just adding another potential scaling option is a bad idea. You can beat 3 cell 1 handed if you have half a brain while playing double TK in its current state

Okay, so You are saying "hey, knives are bread and butter, let's make them ♥♥♥♥, because no fun allowed". I mean, I do not see the alternative. Tranquility and Support are the best mutations for the knives, except must-have x2 ammo, and 2 out of those 3 scales with tactics. So You are suggesting to change knives to scale with Brutality, while the mutations, that makes them shine, are tactic-based, so "let's make mutation sinergy non-existent, because those 3 mutations are good in combo". That is not healthy way to go.
If this weapon and those mutations works well, and other things works significantly worse, it means, that in the game, where difficulty consecutevly INCREASES, we need MORE POWERFUL tools, not LESS. So it is brutality-based mutations needs buff, change and rework, it is another weapons needs rework to appeal as an alternative to knives. Like, okay, You will make knives brutality-based. I will still run double of those and build tactics and brutality, as I always do. What will be achieved by this change? Nothing. Why to change it then? On the other hand, Brutality have a mutation, that gives You extra damage, when there are 2 enemies nearby You. That mutation would be MUCH BETTER, if it would need only 1 enemy nearby, so that You would consider to take it to the boss fights, if You are using close combat weapons. To make bows an alternate tactics-based weapon compared to the knives, we must get 2 things, that bow's lack:
1) ability to move, while shooting
2) better tracking. It would be much better to use the bows if You could shoot downwards at the enemy that You jumped over. And it would look dope. Instead, we have clunky animation, that STOPS MOMENTUM, wich is one big advantage of the knives, because they do not.
As for the closed-combat weapons, it would be great, again, if close-combat weapons would have smoother movesets and would be able to switch. What I mean is that You would use 2 swords, for example, blood sword and balanced blade, and would be able to swing both without a delay in animations hwen presses different buttons, practically, dancing with them. And yes, I see the big problem of such a change. It would require to
1) IMPLEMENT this mechanic into the game
2) DEVELOPE animations and combo movements due to the combinations of weapons used.
But, in conclusion, TK's problem is not that they overpowered, but that other weapons should get some attention to them, because with boss-cells introduction game's dinamic changed, and so we require tools that can comprehende with that increased dinamic. That is a shame, that TK's and bow with infinite arrows outshines others weapons in this regard, but that means, that other weapons need more attention.

[brickey.8]

Ezergile: Your solution to the problem "one particular build is overpowered" is "all other builds must be buffed until they're just as strong"?

[sbm311]

Throwing knives are easy to use, but I would not say that they are OP. You can also use combination of any fast animation weapons like quick bow/infantry bow/fire brands/etc. in a pair with the same success. Knives can not be only brutal stat weapon, since this is originally tactical stat weapon. Maximum it can be scaled from both brutal and tactic stats, but I do not see much trouble developing 2 stats. The same applies to the knife storm, you can completely cause the same damage with grenades and many other skills.

What really needs to be changed is survival builds. Previously, it really reflected the essence - survivability with a lot of health, heavy weapons and shields. Now it's just a heavy and slow weapons with shields. Survival builds should be changed to increase survivability(mutations too weak for that) or change the name to heavy weapons or siege or something like that to more accurately reflect items function.

[KoUJkoDeBo4ka]

İlk olarak brickey.8 tarafından gönderildi:

Ezergile: Your solution to the problem "one particular build is overpowered" is "all other builds must be buffed until they're just as strong"?

well, You know, more runes will come out eventually, maybe if some weapons just bad as they are now, it means that they will be even more of a burden in an upcoming future? Like the thing that they did with the Wrenching whip. As it is said in patchnotes, it's moveset was remade due to some community feedback. But the weapon itself became worse, not better, because it now has movements of different speed and at least one of the moves is horisontal, wich makes it unable to hit airborn targets. Changes like that makes weapons worse, because they loses their strong sides for... what exactly? Fancy move? Valmont's whip could've benefit from that move, because You would have at least one quaranteed critical hit from such a combo. But wrenching whip got destroyed for no good reason. And the saying "let's replace TK's scaling with Brutality over Tactics" is also one of those changes, that is made single-targetly to destroy one of the best synergy in the entire game at the current state. As I said, I do not mind if Knives would have mixed scaling between Brutality and Tactics, even though it would potentialy cost me some loss in terms of min-maxing single stat, because then I would try out double tk with Agony (even though it is pretty weak as it is right now), but just replace the weapon completely from one stat to another for sake of one man's way to play seems little bit... Not appealing as the best possible solution.

[Yamete]

Like i said before; due to it's short delay and auto aim on attacks, it's great when you use it right before engaging. It's more fun and exciting than jumping and clearing the room only with mashing buttons.

The problem with the tactic build for tk is being too safe with little to no punishments.

With brutality you can use sadism, flow and efficiency mutations, assasin dagger with phaser and knife storm. And go for the high brutality run. With skill you can feel the satisfaction of having fun and knowing that you are experienced.

TK was supposed to be used like this. I am fine with tactic/brutal scaling too. I just want my knives back.

[KoUJkoDeBo4ka]

İlk olarak Last Arrow tarafından gönderildi:

Like i said before; due to it's short delay and auto aim on attacks, it's great when you use it right before engaging. It's more fun and exciting than jumping and clearing the room only with mashing buttons.

The problem with the tactic build for tk is being too safe with little to no punishments.

With brutality you can use sadism, flow and efficiency mutations, assasin dagger with phaser and knife storm. And go for the high brutality run. With skill you can feel the satisfaction of having fun and knowing that you are experienced.

TK was supposed to be used like this. I am fine with tactic/brutal scaling too. I just want my knives back.

1) Deciding what is fun and what is not - is an act, that You only can consider to Your own self. That is a cuestion of a preferences. And You can't tell others, that their way to play must be reworked because You think, that this is not fun, and Your way is better or more entertaining. Because that is not constructive criticism.
2) How things were supposed to work, we can not know for sure, because we were not the people, who developed the game, so I would be just a touch more carefull on such a statements.