Dead Cells

Dead Cells

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Retry2 Jul 3, 2017 @ 9:51am
Removing items from the drop pool
Everyone has an item they HATE. I'd love to see the ability to disable items from the available drop pool. I understand why people would dislike that ability, too, so maybe only give the option to a fully upgraded item?

Maybe when fully upgraded, people will be enticed to use it anyway.
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Showing 1-15 of 33 comments
Werti100 Jul 3, 2017 @ 11:25am 
I guess having the ability to disable 1 or 2 items could be fine but being able to disable an unlimited amount will make the game easy since people will be able to choose the best items.
Chucky Jul 3, 2017 @ 12:02pm 
I had the same thought when an elite dropped the Gold shield, which i really don't need when I have 3000+ Gold... Make it an unlockable / upgradable ability if it seems to strong,
SgtFalx Jul 4, 2017 @ 1:46am 
YES! Crypt of the Necrodancer did this nicely.
Retry2 Jul 5, 2017 @ 3:05pm 
Originally posted by Werti100:
I guess having the ability to disable 1 or 2 items could be fine but being able to disable an unlimited amount will make the game easy since people will be able to choose the best items.
They could either limit the number you could remove, or put the beginning weapons back in the pool in their place, I'd rather run into the starting sword or bow with an affix than the spartan sandal or the electric whip.
Colonel Mustache Jul 5, 2017 @ 3:16pm 
Yeah, I mean, you can already simulate that exactly by just not unlocking them to begin with, so I think letting the player do that without just resetting the save file would be good.
Helmic Jul 5, 2017 @ 4:31pm 
Originally posted by Werti100:
I guess having the ability to disable 1 or 2 items could be fine but being able to disable an unlimited amount will make the game easy since people will be able to choose the best items.

The problem with limiting that is that you can already do this:

Originally posted by Colonel Mustache:
Yeah, I mean, you can already simulate that exactly by just not unlocking them to begin with, so I think letting the player do that without just resetting the save file would be good.

This even has the additional advantage of freeing up your cells, but you have to spoil yourself on the game to know which weapons are good and which are ass.

I do get that doing sub-optimal runs makes the game interesting, builds you might not have considered you'll end up playing with anyways because that's what you got. I think a better solution than unlimited locking is to make it so unlocking weapons makes it so you become stronger universally - like starting the game with one or more stat boosts if you have X number of items unlocked.

This, in combination with unlimited ability to lock weapons for all runs, means that players are more free to just unlock a weapon to try it out and see if they like it. If they don't, they can just re-lock it, for free - but then that weapon won't count towards the requirements for a stat boost. Having those stat boosts is worth more than having only good weapons at lower stats, so even minmaxing players will want to play with a large pool of weapons that'll include some suboptimal choices. The best boosts will require everything to be unlocked.

Late-game, you might be able to spend cells to lock a limited number of weapons for the next run while still having them count towards requirements. This makes cells useful even for those who have already gotten everything unliocked, since guaranteeing you won't get a Greed Shield is really useful. The UI could even let you save an ordered list of blacklisted weaopns and let you just hold A to spend your cells to lock them all in order, so you don't have to select which ones you don't want by hand. The better your last run, the more weapons you can ban for the next.
InstableMonster Jul 5, 2017 @ 6:16pm 
Originally posted by Helmic:

I do get that doing sub-optimal runs makes the game interesting, builds you might not have considered you'll end up playing with anyways because that's what you got. I think a better solution than unlimited locking is to make it so unlocking weapons makes it so you become stronger universally - like starting the game with one or more stat boosts if you have X number of items unlocked.


it's already in the game, potions upgrade, starting weapon upgrade, all require you to unlock x number of other items and make the start of your run easier
Retry2 Jul 5, 2017 @ 6:28pm 
Originally posted by Colonel Mustache:
Yeah, I mean, you can already simulate that exactly by just not unlocking them to begin with, so I think letting the player do that without just resetting the save file would be good.

Except one of my most hated items is the electric whip. Also, I've dumped a LOT into my current unlock status, I really don't feel like going back to the beginning just because I hate the sandals, whip, and ice bow.
Snekurai Jul 5, 2017 @ 7:33pm 
I absolutely HATE the nutcracker (The big slow useless hammer), I'd LOVE to see a way to block it from appearing in the spawn room, I'm fine with elsewhere, but I restart runs I get that piece of ♥♥♥♥ on. Honestly I actually prefer the RUSTY SWORD to it, at least it's useful and can kill stuff in comparison.
Last edited by Snekurai; Jul 5, 2017 @ 7:38pm
Helmic Jul 5, 2017 @ 9:25pm 
Originally posted by InstableMonster:
Originally posted by Helmic:

I do get that doing sub-optimal runs makes the game interesting, builds you might not have considered you'll end up playing with anyways because that's what you got. I think a better solution than unlimited locking is to make it so unlocking weapons makes it so you become stronger universally - like starting the game with one or more stat boosts if you have X number of items unlocked.


it's already in the game, potions upgrade, starting weapon upgrade, all require you to unlock x number of other items and make the start of your run easier

Yes, but there isn't nearly enough and you can't undo unlocks. Just giving you more potions isn't that helpful because you'll often end up dying with potion uses still left - you can get rekt *really* fast in this game and a good player doesn't necessarily need more than 4 to get through a level. They have diminishing returns that could be easily outweighed by the ability to guarantee all your drops will be good. And, in the current state of the game, you can get all the general upgrades by only unlocking the very best weapons and skills - unlocking anything less amazing than a Rapier is a mistake.

Stat upgrades, however, are useful even for the most advanced players because killing stuff faster is always useful.

The idea is to make it so you can lock items again, so that players aren't punished for experimenting with what they want to unlock or not looking up spoilers in a guide... but also make it so minmaxing players have an opportunity cost to consider. Sure, the Ice Bow is absolutely terrible, one of the worst items in the game, but the possibility of getting an Ice Bow might be better than forgoing a +1 STR upgrade (even if you don't get it immediately in the starting room).
Terra Blade Jul 5, 2017 @ 10:29pm 
Originally posted by Werti100:
I guess having the ability to disable 1 or 2 items could be fine but being able to disable an unlimited amount will make the game easy since people will be able to choose the best items.

Part of the 'best item' combos also relies on enchantments. For instance a bleeding frost spell with the blood sword is very powerful. But without the bleed on frost it isn't nearly as powerful.

That said, limiting items could allow for more unique runs. Such as spells only for weapons or not having access to grenades (one of the more useful active skill catigories).
Colonel Mustache Jul 5, 2017 @ 10:32pm 
Originally posted by Helmic:
Originally posted by InstableMonster:


it's already in the game, potions upgrade, starting weapon upgrade, all require you to unlock x number of other items and make the start of your run easier

Yes, but there isn't nearly enough and you can't undo unlocks. Just giving you more potions isn't that helpful because you'll often end up dying with potion uses still left - you can get rekt *really* fast in this game and a good player doesn't necessarily need more than 4 to get through a level. They have diminishing returns that could be easily outweighed by the ability to guarantee all your drops will be good. And, in the current state of the game, you can get all the general upgrades by only unlocking the very best weapons and skills - unlocking anything less amazing than a Rapier is a mistake.

Stat upgrades, however, are useful even for the most advanced players because killing stuff faster is always useful.

The idea is to make it so you can lock items again, so that players aren't punished for experimenting with what they want to unlock or not looking up spoilers in a guide... but also make it so minmaxing players have an opportunity cost to consider. Sure, the Ice Bow is absolutely terrible, one of the worst items in the game, but the possibility of getting an Ice Bow might be better than forgoing a +1 STR upgrade (even if you don't get it immediately in the starting room).

Exactly. I know the ideal goal is to balance all the items so that they're equally good, but even in a well-balanced game, there's never going to be perfect balance.

Letting players experiment with items by being able to lock/unlock most of them would allow for more ideal runs, and would theoretically make the game more enjoyable for everyone. I'd love to do a "joke" run where all I have is the spartan sandals or something, but then disable them when I want to do a more serious run where I don't use them at all. Some say that the random nature of the items you get is the whole point, but those players would still be able to play that way by just not re-locking anything.
Terra Blade Jul 5, 2017 @ 10:42pm 
Originally posted by Colonel Mustache:
Originally posted by Helmic:

Yes, but there isn't nearly enough and you can't undo unlocks. Just giving you more potions isn't that helpful because you'll often end up dying with potion uses still left - you can get rekt *really* fast in this game and a good player doesn't necessarily need more than 4 to get through a level. They have diminishing returns that could be easily outweighed by the ability to guarantee all your drops will be good. And, in the current state of the game, you can get all the general upgrades by only unlocking the very best weapons and skills - unlocking anything less amazing than a Rapier is a mistake.

Stat upgrades, however, are useful even for the most advanced players because killing stuff faster is always useful.

The idea is to make it so you can lock items again, so that players aren't punished for experimenting with what they want to unlock or not looking up spoilers in a guide... but also make it so minmaxing players have an opportunity cost to consider. Sure, the Ice Bow is absolutely terrible, one of the worst items in the game, but the possibility of getting an Ice Bow might be better than forgoing a +1 STR upgrade (even if you don't get it immediately in the starting room).

Exactly. I know the ideal goal is to balance all the items so that they're equally good, but even in a well-balanced game, there's never going to be perfect balance.

Letting players experiment with items by being able to lock/unlock most of them would allow for more ideal runs, and would theoretically make the game more enjoyable for everyone. I'd love to do a "joke" run where all I have is the spartan sandals or something, but then disable them when I want to do a more serious run where I don't use them at all. Some say that the random nature of the items you get is the whole point, but those players would still be able to play that way by just not re-locking anything.

This is my thought exactly. To counter it you could penalize dropping under a certain percentage of items unlocked. Both to encourage continuing to unlock items while keeping players from limiting themselves to an "op item build". Maybe something like increasing enemy damage or reducing gold dropped?
Epsilon Rose Jul 5, 2017 @ 11:33pm 
Stats scale exponentially. Having starting stats higher than one would exacerbate the insane amount of potential power players have at the end of the game. This is not a balanced suggestion.
Terra Blade Jul 6, 2017 @ 1:32am 
Originally posted by Epsilon Rose:
Stats scale exponentially. Having starting stats higher than one would exacerbate the insane amount of potential power players have at the end of the game. This is not a balanced suggestion.

No, not for the player against the enemy, but the enemy against the player. So you can reduce the pool down to a very small amount but in doing so you buff the enemies damage against you as a penelty. In short the more you reduce the RNG after a certain amount, the harder the game gets to compensate.
Last edited by Terra Blade; Jul 6, 2017 @ 1:33am
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Date Posted: Jul 3, 2017 @ 9:51am
Posts: 33