[Suggestion] Rolling vs Parrying

[Random]

I was wondering what people think of the defensive mechanics in this game.

Rolling is really simple, you quickly move in a direction, have invulnerability frames, and can pass through enemies. It has a short cooldown so you can't spam it. You can also interrupt a roll by attacking. This makes it so that even if you roll at the last possible second, you can still counterattack no matter what.

Parrying is satisfying, and punishing players for poor timing is good, but it feels incredibly strange not being able to continue holding my shield up after using it. I feel like the punishment for a poorly timed parry is much harsher than the punishment for a poorly timed dodge, most of the time you can get away with dodging early since you are now either behind the enemy or a good distance from them. Missing a parry makes you a sitting duck. There's a brief window where you are essentially stunned and unable to take any action after a parry, you can't even move. You can't interrupt a parry by attacking, and some attacks are too powerful to be parried depending on how strong your shield is.

After the initial parry animation I think you should be able to continue blocking with reduced effectiveness. Something like 50% damage reduction instead, and no speical effects that would trigger on parry since it would be a block instead. This would make shields feel like a more reliable defensive option.

As of right now rolling feels far superior; parrying only feels like a good option when roll is on cooldown.

What do you guys think? Should I just get good? Right now I mostly roll to avoid attacks and it feels silly to carry a shield instead of a ranged weapon.

Are there some advantages to parrying compared to rolling that I'm missing?

[Oryzon]

Rolling > Parrying. That's why shield are trash. They need to be buff with other stat or mechanic to be good. Like, I don't know damage reduction ?

[Nycunz]

Parry is high risks / low rewards, and rolling is low risks / medium rewards.
Shields are one of the items poorly design, the defensive bonus is strong but not fun to play with, and the parry does not give a huge damage boost in the next attack. I hope the devs will work on the shield mechanic in the future.

[Epsilon Rose]

Parries have a few advantages over rolling. First, they can return some ammo, if you're using an ammo based weapon and can parry the enemy the ammo is stuck in them. Second, most shields can cause some level of stun and do a little bit of damage. Third, every shield has some special effect, like bleeding everyone in range or an extra long stun, though the actual utility of those abilities. Finally, shields can have affixes, like throwing a grenade or drastically increasing the damage of your next attack, tha only trigger on parries.

Now, whether those advantages make them make parrying an attractive option over dodging is another question. Personally, I mostly consider shields when I'm doing an ammo based run, as it gives me another way to get my ammo back.

[Typoko]

Shield parry is something you can do without changing your position. Example for this could be The Watcher using charge attack. You can be there and start smacking the boss right after the parry. Parries can also be done at the same time as dodges. Good example for parry being really good is the tentacle phase of The Watcher. You can dodge as you want and then parry the tentacle that runs from side to side.

Bleed and Spike shields are rather good damage bump.

[Stalkholm]

It's going to depend a lot on what shield we're talking about. Case in point: Assault Shield is nearly useless when equipped with any weapon in the game, except Impaler; Assault Shield makes Impaler nearly godly, and vice versa. (Substitute Shove Shield or Spartan Sandals for Assault Shield, or Rapier for Impaler for similar combos.)

I also find Blood Shield extremely useful, but I suck at finding and responding to flying enemies.

Other shields are less useful, like the Sturdy Shield and Force Shield, which are purely defensive.

You have a point when talking about balance, Shields are not at all well balanced at the moment. That said, Shields are fun right now, and I worry that the "hold up your shield" change might make them less fun. (I'm greedy, I know.)

There is a held shield in the game, from what I hear, but I haven't seen the blueprint at all.

For my part I'd rather see more utility any synergy added to shields than see the mechanics change, but that's just me.

[Epsilon Rose]

Originally posted by kirinelm:

For my part I'd rather see more utility any synergy added to shields than see the mechanics change, but that's just me.

That's the thing though: there are already a number of shields with quite a bit of utility synergy, either due to their affixes or their actual abilities, and even they aren't well regarded.

There's an almost constant trickle of complaints about shields, but I'm not sure there's actually a good diagnosis for what the underlying problem is, so much as some of the symptoms and than guesses at what will fix those.

[Blargo]

Even after shields were buffed, I still prefer using two weapons rather than a shield. I couldn't exactly figure out why that is, but I think I have an idea.

When you use a shield, you stop dead in your tracks, even if you are in mid-air. Perhaps that's the reason why I prefer rolling - it just feels like I have more control. Plus, this does seem like a game where you don't want to stop moving most of the time, especially during combat.

So what if they applied the same mechanics for rolling to shields? Where you can still move normally, but not be able to jump during the action? Or at the very least, be able to move at a slightly reduced speed.
I think I might prefer this over the i-frames-on-damage mechanic.

Besides this though, shields are also the only items in the game where they can become useless if one of your stats (strength) is too low for the levels you are in. While it does make sense, realism is often not a good model to follow for video games.

[Frosthaven]

I love having the parry mechanic, I just hate that I have to opt into invincibility frames to leverage it.

[NamelessWill]

Originally posted by Epsilon Rose:

Originally posted by kirinelm:

For my part I'd rather see more utility any synergy added to shields than see the mechanics change, but that's just me.

That's the thing though: there are already a number of shields with quite a bit of utility synergy, either due to their affixes or their actual abilities, and even they aren't well regarded.

There's an almost constant trickle of complaints about shields, but I'm not sure there's actually a good diagnosis for what the underlying problem is, so much as some of the symptoms and than guesses at what will fix those.

I agree.
I find it very gratifying to employ successful blocks in the midst of situations where I end up doing 4x damage via the setup of my gear. There is a definite time to use shields, especially when they assist your current build.
The complaints I generally read here are just people who are instantly turned off by how short a time that you block and don't give it time to learn how to get good at it.
I do NOT think shields should break as you progress, though. I don't understand that facet.
Other that that, they do not need any more buffing. It would make them boring, and just drop the value of every other item. As it stands, it is just one aspect of your character. It doesn't need to be the center of an entire build.

[Epsilon Rose]

Originally posted by wmcferren:

Originally posted by Epsilon Rose:

That's the thing though: there are already a number of shields with quite a bit of utility synergy, either due to their affixes or their actual abilities, and even they aren't well regarded.

There's an almost constant trickle of complaints about shields, but I'm not sure there's actually a good diagnosis for what the underlying problem is, so much as some of the symptoms and than guesses at what will fix those.

I agree.
I find it very gratifying to employ successful blocks in the midst of situations where I end up doing 4x damage via the setup of my gear. There is a definite time to use shields, especially when they assist your current build.
The complaints I generally read here are just people who are instantly turned off by how short a time that you block and don't give it time to learn how to get good at it.
I do NOT think shields should break as you progress, though. I don't understand that facet.
Other that that, they do not need any more buffing. It would make them boring, and just drop the value of every other item. As it stands, it is just one aspect of your character. It doesn't need to be the center of an entire build.

Yeah. The defense breaks are wierd. Espesially because shields would normally be one of the utility items you'd go with if you aren't using a strength build (and that's a pretty short list as is).

[Random]

Originally posted by Dxpress:

When you use a shield, you stop dead in your tracks, even if you are in mid-air. Perhaps that's the reason why I prefer rolling - it just feels like I have more control. Plus, this does seem like a game where you don't want to stop moving most of the time, especially during combat.

So what if they applied the same mechanics for rolling to shields? Where you can still move normally, but not be able to jump during the action? Or at the very least, be able to move at a slightly reduced speed.

I really like this idea, it is really frustrating not being able to move at all for the entire animation, the added mobility would definitely make them more viable.

Thanks for the responses everyone; I feel like shields are slightly underpowered but definitely still usable after experimenting with them a bit more.

[ChaosSabre]

Rolling beats parrying in every aspect. It's safer and much easier to do. And you need a high enough str stat to be able to block properly later on and sometimes game just doesn't give you enough of those and your shield becomes just a glorified passive I-frames amulet.